God is a Spirit...

General Christian Theology
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Bootstrap
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Re: God is a Spirit...

Post by Bootstrap »

lesterb wrote:We can only go so far with our answers for some questions until they become speculation. I finally told the brother I was discussing this with that we'll have to shelve the discussion until we got to heaven, if we're still interested in it at that point.
Yeah. I think unanswered questions are really useful, and speculation is fine as long as we know just how speculative we are being. The problem is when we become convinced that our speculation is settled truth.

God is way beyond our ability to understand. That means a lot of our questions won't be answered down here.
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Re: God is a Spirit...

Post by silentreader »

lesterb wrote:[bible]John 4,24[/bible]

[bible]Luke 24,36-43[/bible]

I had some correspondence on the question of Jesus being alive and having a body, etc. This finally got me to thinking. According to the verses above, God doesn't have a body like we do. But Jesus does, though it is a glorified version of a body, like we will receive when we die.

So was Jesus a Spirit, like God, until the incarnation? But now he has a body, and is the only part of the god-head to have one? So does this mean that coming to earth was more than just a thirty year sacrifice, but on ongoing eternal one?

I'd like to hear your thoughts, if you have any....
A few interesting OT passages...
Genesis 3:8-13 English Standard Version (ESV)
8 And they heard the sound of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool[a] of the day, and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God among the trees of the garden. 9 But the Lord God called to the man and said to him, “Where are you?” 10 And he said, “I heard the sound of you in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked, and I hid myself.” 11 He said, “Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten of the tree of which I commanded you not to eat?” 12 The man said, “The woman whom you gave to be with me, she gave me fruit of the tree, and I ate.” 13 Then the Lord God said to the woman, “What is this that you have done?” The woman said, “The serpent deceived me, and I ate.”

Genesis 18:1-3 English Standard Version (ESV)
18 And the Lord appeared to him by the oaks[a] of Mamre, as he sat at the door of his tent in the heat of the day. 2 He lifted up his eyes and looked, and behold, three men were standing in front of him. When he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them and bowed himself to the earth 3 and said, “O Lord, if I have found favor in your sight, do not pass by your servant.

Exodus 33:17-23 English Standard Version (ESV)
17 And the Lord said to Moses, “This very thing that you have spoken I will do, for you have found favor in my sight, and I know you by name.” 18 Moses said, “Please show me your glory.” 19 And he said, “I will make all my goodness pass before you and will proclaim before you my name ‘The Lord.’ And I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show mercy on whom I will show mercy. 20 But,” he said, “you cannot see my face, for man shall not see me and live.” 21 And the Lord said, “Behold, there is a place by me where you shall stand on the rock, 22 and while my glory passes by I will put you in a cleft of the rock, and I will cover you with my hand until I have passed by. 23 Then I will take away my hand, and you shall see my back, but my face shall not be seen.”

Deuteronomy 34:10-12 English Standard Version (ESV)
10 And there has not arisen a prophet since in Israel like Moses, whom the Lord knew face to face, 11 none like him for all the signs and the wonders that the Lord sent him to do in the land of Egypt, to Pharaoh and to all his servants and to all his land, 12 and for all the mighty power and all the great deeds of terror that Moses did in the sight of all Israel.


Seems like the pre-incarnate Word sometimes took on form, whether that was a body as we know it, I guess I have no idea.
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temporal1
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Re: God is a Spirit...

Post by temporal1 »

silentreader wrote: Seems like the pre-incarnate Word sometimes took on form, whether that was a body as we know it, I guess I have no idea.
yes. whatever form God uses for His purpose.
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Re: God is a Spirit...

Post by Valerie »

Jacob Wrestles with God-Genesis 32

22And he rose up that night, and took his two wives, and his two womenservants, and his eleven sons, and passed over the ford Jabbok. 23And he took them, and sent them over the brook, and sent over that he had.

24And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day. 25And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him. 26And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me. 27And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob. 28And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed. 29And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there. 30And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved. 31And as he passed over Penuel the sun rose upon him, and he halted upon his thigh. 32Therefore the children of Israel eat not of the sinew which shrank, which is upon the hollow of the thigh, unto this day: because he touched the hollow of Jacob's thigh in the sinew that shrank.

And yet Jesus said:

John 1:18 King James Version (KJV)
18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
So- apparently Jacob had seen God face to face- but not God the Father- because Jesus said no one hath seen God at any time-

Another interesting passage:

24Then Nebuchadnezzar the king was astonied, and rose up in haste, and spake, and said unto his counsellers, Did not we cast three men bound into the midst of the fire? They answered and said unto the king, True, O king. 25He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God. 26Then Nebuchadnezzar came near to the mouth of the burning fiery furnace, and spake, and said, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, ye servants of the most high God, come forth, and come hither. Then Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, came forth of the midst of the fire. 27And the princes, governors, and captains, and the king's counsellers, being gathered together, saw these men, upon whose bodies the fire had no power, nor was an hair of their head singed, neither were their coats changed, nor the smell of fire had passed on them.
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Re: God is a Spirit...

Post by silentreader »

Valerie wrote:Jacob Wrestles with God-Genesis 32

22And he rose up that night, and took his two wives, and his two womenservants, and his eleven sons, and passed over the ford Jabbok. 23And he took them, and sent them over the brook, and sent over that he had.

24And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day. 25And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him. 26And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me. 27And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob. 28And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed. 29And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there. 30And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved. 31And as he passed over Penuel the sun rose upon him, and he halted upon his thigh. 32Therefore the children of Israel eat not of the sinew which shrank, which is upon the hollow of the thigh, unto this day: because he touched the hollow of Jacob's thigh in the sinew that shrank.

And yet Jesus said:

John 1:18 King James Version (KJV)
18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
So- apparently Jacob had seen God face to face- but not God the Father- because Jesus said no one hath seen God at any time-

Another interesting passage:

24Then Nebuchadnezzar the king was astonied, and rose up in haste, and spake, and said unto his counsellers, Did not we cast three men bound into the midst of the fire? They answered and said unto the king, True, O king. 25He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God. 26Then Nebuchadnezzar came near to the mouth of the burning fiery furnace, and spake, and said, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, ye servants of the most high God, come forth, and come hither. Then Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, came forth of the midst of the fire. 27And the princes, governors, and captains, and the king's counsellers, being gathered together, saw these men, upon whose bodies the fire had no power, nor was an hair of their head singed, neither were their coats changed, nor the smell of fire had passed on them.
And then to confuse things further,
John 14:9-10 English Standard Version (ESV)
9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works.
As an aside, Nebuchadnezzar's statement is possibly better translated as "a son of the gods" for several different reasons.
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Re: God is a Spirit...

Post by temporal1 »

lesterb wrote:[bible]John 4,24[/bible] ...
Differences in wording? ..
lester, your subject line is, “God is a Spirit”...
but, your ESV passage does not use “a” .. ?

on biblehub, most translations do not use “a” .. some use a capital “S” in Spirit, but not all.
http://biblehub.com/john/4-24.htm
is there significance?
Hats Off wrote:
I sometimes feel we ask too many questions - ask for too much proof. I think we need to believe by faith. That which we can see and have proof of, does not require faith.
i’m with Hats Off, tho, it’s interesting to wonder .. with acceptance+respect that understanding is the decision of the Holy Spirit, not something we can control, demand, or fabricate. we can pray for understanding and guidance. i certainly do that! then, trust we will be given what we need.
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Re: God is a Spirit...

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Well, a few points could be made to look for the answer.
In Genesis, we are made in His likeness.
In Daniel, the Ancient of Days appears in his vision I'm the likeness of a man. Not claiming it to be literal, but worth noting.

My inclination, which is all but worthless, is that He resembles a "spirit man"... Sounds all mystical and bizarre, I know, but I simply mean a spirit that, if seen, would appear in a way that is likened to the image reflected in man.
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Re: God is a Spirit...

Post by Bootstrap »

I suspect that the difference between "God is a Spirit" and "God is spirit" is also relevant to this discussion.
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Re: God is a Spirit...

Post by Bootstrap »

temporal1 wrote:on biblehub, most translations do not use “a” .. some use a capital “S” in Spirit, but not all.
http://biblehub.com/john/4-24.htm
is there significance?
Ah, I see that you posted this before I posted on the same subject.

I think this is significant, and I think "God is spirit" is probably the better translation, but this isn't something you can "prove" from the Greek. I think it's similar to phrases like "Jesus is Lord" (not "Jesus is a lord"), "the Word was God" (not "the Word was a god") or "Herod is King" (not "Herod is a king").

Greek does not have the word "a", and it thinks a little different about the kinds of things we use "a" and "the" than we do in English. Each of the phrases above actually could be translated either way if they stood alone, you really need context and the intent of the author or speaker to know which one is intended.
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Re: God is a Spirit...

Post by temporal1 »

Bootstrap wrote:
temporal1 wrote:on biblehub, most translations do not use “a” .. some use a capital “S” in Spirit, but not all.
http://biblehub.com/john/4-24.htm
is there significance?
Ah, I see that you posted this before I posted on the same subject.

I think this is significant, and I think "God is spirit" is probably the better translation, but this isn't something you can "prove" from the Greek. I think it's similar to phrases like "Jesus is Lord" (not "Jesus is a lord"), "the Word was God" (not "the Word was a god") or "Herod is King" (not "Herod is a king").

Greek does not have the word "a", and it thinks a little different about the kinds of things we use "a" and "the" than we do in English. Each of the phrases above actually could be translated either way if they stood alone, you really need context and the intent of the author or speaker to know which one is intended.
yes. that addresses my question.
the “a” confuses my little brain. but, some translations use it.
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