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Jesus calls us to repent and obey him. If we keep his commandments, we will abide in his love. The more we forget that and look to Protestant theology, the more confused we will become.

Now as to the poll, I can definitely agree to the second part (James 2 says quite clearly that Abraham was justified by works, and that we are too). I'm not sure quite what is meant by the first and third parts of the poll as they use the constructs "truly believe" and "saving faith," and I don't understand (or maybe I choose not to understand) those constructs.

Incidentally, the poll title differs from the thread title.

I believe in the first one. We can't be justified by works of obedience. However I also believe that if we live in known disobedience then the first one can't be true. In other words it becomes a facade or a mirage, and we are only fooling ourselves.

I like to think that believing Jesus’ message is the first of many acts of obedience.

We need help to obey, just like a little child does. Jesus comes alongside us and helps us obey after that first initial act of choosing to believe in him.

Josh wrote:I like to think that believing Jesus’ message is the first of many acts of obedience.

We need help to obey, just like a little child does. Jesus comes alongside us and helps us obey after that first initial act of choosing to believe in him.

I really like the way you put this.

If a lifesaving ring is thrown to a drowning man, he is not ultimately saved by reaching for the ring (although if he refuses to reach he will drown), he is saved by the offer of the ring. Without the offer of the ring, he could reach all he likes - it would be a meaningless act...and he would still drown.

Our act of accepting Christ's gift of salvation only has meaning because salvation is offered - so even the act of accepting Christ is dependent on his offer of salvation.

For those who say salvation is based on obedience, are there any areas in our lives where we would have to admit we are being disobedient if pointed out to us according to what is said under the New Covenant ?

James 2:10 says - "For the person who keeps all of the laws except one is as guilty as a person who has broken all of God's laws" . And James is speaking to Christians here. Does this not apply to all the commands are the New Covenant ? If yes, then perfect obedience is required for salvation and we are all in trouble.

I would suggest there are areas in our lives that, whether we admit to it or not, we are even being willfully disobedient. Sometimes these are interpreted to say those commands don't apply to us. Are we right ? Are we depending on perfect obedience to save us or some level of obedience ? If some level, then how can one have any assurance that they will be saved ? What area of disobedience is one too many and you lose your salvation ?

Or are we saved by God's grace through faith and the result of this is a new disposition towards Gods that causes us to want to obey and we believe that the closer we get to a more perfect obedience the more we will experience that life Jesus said we would have called 'life more abundantly' ? Disobedience results in a falling short of that kind of Kingdom life.

Dan Z wrote:If a lifesaving ring is thrown to a drowning man, he is not ultimately saved by reaching for the ring (although if he refuses to reach he will drown), he is saved by the offer of the ring. Without the offer of the ring, he could reach all he likes - it would be a meaningless act...and he would still drown.

Our act of accepting Christ's gift of salvation only has meaning because salvation is offered - so even the act of accepting Christ is dependent on his offer of salvation.

There is no "if" about the ring; it has been thrown. We are only saved as we reach for (accept) that which is offered.

And likewise after the ring has been taken in hand, do we swim against it and not make shore? or do we need to swim with it to actually be saved?

meh... analogies can only go so far

Why do so many people not understand that our works cannot save us, not even partially. We are justified in God's sight because of genuine faith in Jesus Christ, this is what the Bible teaches so clearly - no need to add works to the equation because God has lifted off that impossible burden for salvation. The entire book of Galatians is devoted to this very topic! Now obviously that genuine faith will love Christ and will bring forth fruit etc. - but please - Amish or not - stop putting the cart before (or next to) the horse!

Thanks, Paul. I always need the reminder. But I left both the horse and the cart behind years ago.