I think that there are different questions being asked here, and different questions being answered. Saved? Justified? Declared righteous?
In his letter to the scattered (Jewish) believers, James states that as a response to Abraham's act of obedience (works), God "credited it to him as righteousness". What is righteousness? Is it the same as salvation, or justification? I'm not dead sure, but I think that 'righteousness' is 'being in right relationship to God'. As such, God is declaring that "Abraham is my friend". I also think it is well for us to remember that the deeds (or works) spoken of in James' letter are acts of belief - deeds that are done out of, and because of belief, that is, a relationship with (or possibly a desired relationship with) God. Paul, in his letter to the Galatian believers, on the other hand, was talking about something quite different. These were people doing their "acts of righteousness" in order to gain or hold onto God's approval, or one might say, gain or maintain a relationship with God. This is different than things done ("works") BECAUSE OF a close relationship with God.
So I would say that we are not "saved" by our acts of obedience, nor are we "justified" by them. But then again, "obedience" for the sake of gaining, or even preserving, my own salvation is not what God desires or has asked for, so that is, in fact, DISobedience.
Are We Saved By Our Acts Of Obedience?
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Re: Are We Saved By Our Acts Of Obedience?
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Congregation: Gospel Haven Mennonite Fellowship, Benton, Ohio (Holmes Co.) a split from Beachy-Amish Mennonite.
Personal heritage & general theological viewpoint: conservative Mennonite Brethren.
Personal heritage & general theological viewpoint: conservative Mennonite Brethren.
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Re: Are We Saved By Our Acts Of Obedience?
So if there is nothing men can do to be saved, will 100% of people be saved? If not, why not?Paul wrote:Why do so many people not understand that our works cannot save us, not even partially. We are justified in God's sight because of genuine faith in Jesus Christ, this is what the Bible teaches so clearly - no need to add works to the equation because God has lifted off that impossible burden for salvation. The entire book of Galatians is devoted to this very topic! Now obviously that genuine faith will love Christ and will bring forth fruit etc. - but please - Amish or not - stop putting the cart before (or next to) the horse!
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Re: Are We Saved By Our Acts Of Obedience?
[bible]Romans 10,9-10[/bible]Josh wrote:So if there is nothing men can do to be saved, will 100% of people be saved? If not, why not?Paul wrote:Why do so many people not understand that our works cannot save us, not even partially. We are justified in God's sight because of genuine faith in Jesus Christ, this is what the Bible teaches so clearly - no need to add works to the equation because God has lifted off that impossible burden for salvation. The entire book of Galatians is devoted to this very topic! Now obviously that genuine faith will love Christ and will bring forth fruit etc. - but please - Amish or not - stop putting the cart before (or next to) the horse!
One cannot do anything to earn their salvation but one can receive the gift of salvation by a belief and confession of Jesus as Lord. Some believe you can only receive the gift if God first gives you a heart change to do that while others see man being drawn by God to salvation but man's ability to chose precedes having this new heart. So, those in the former camp might say 'no, man can't do anything to be saved in his condition prior to regeneration which then salvation is all of God and who He choses to save'. The latter camp might say 'no, man, drawn by God to Himself can chose to follow Christ and this choice is not to be considered a work that saves us'. Anabaptists are generally in the latter camp, I believe.
100% of people will not be saved either because God didn't chose to save them or people will not believe to receive the gift of salvation. In either case, imo, man can do nothing to be saved.
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Re: Are We Saved By Our Acts Of Obedience?
Isn’t choosing to believe / confessing with your mouth “doing something”, though?
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Re: Are We Saved By Our Acts Of Obedience?
These quotes:
(1) that obedience is required for salvation
(2) that salvation is not impossible
(3) that assurance of salvation is possible
CA's who believe all three of the above would probably include, but not necessarily be limited to, intermediate-conservatives, ultra-conservatives, and certain "Kingdom Christian" intentionalist groups.
Sudsy wrote: Are we depending on perfect obedience to save us or some level of obedience ? If some level, then how can one have any assurance that they will be saved ?
would be news to those CA's who believe all three of the following:Paul wrote: no need to add works to the equation because God has lifted off that impossible burden for salvation
(1) that obedience is required for salvation
(2) that salvation is not impossible
(3) that assurance of salvation is possible
CA's who believe all three of the above would probably include, but not necessarily be limited to, intermediate-conservatives, ultra-conservatives, and certain "Kingdom Christian" intentionalist groups.
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"Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous."
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Re: Are We Saved By Our Acts Of Obedience?
It goes back to the intention of the heart, doesn't it? What's the motivation of the disciple?Neto wrote:I think that there are different questions being asked here, and different questions being answered. Saved? Justified? Declared righteous?
In his letter to the scattered (Jewish) believers, James states that as a response to Abraham's act of obedience (works), God "credited it to him as righteousness". What is righteousness? Is it the same as salvation, or justification? I'm not dead sure, but I think that 'righteousness' is 'being in right relationship to God'. As such, God is declaring that "Abraham is my friend". I also think it is well for us to remember that the deeds (or works) spoken of in James' letter are acts of belief - deeds that are done out of, and because of belief, that is, a relationship with (or possibly a desired relationship with) God. Paul, in his letter to the Galatian believers, on the other hand, was talking about something quite different. These were people doing their "acts of righteousness" in order to gain or hold onto God's approval, or one might say, gain or maintain a relationship with God. This is different than things done ("works") BECAUSE OF a close relationship with God.
So I would say that we are not "saved" by our acts of obedience, nor are we "justified" by them. But then again, "obedience" for the sake of gaining, or even preserving, my own salvation is not what God desires or has asked for, so that is, in fact, DISobedience.
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Max (Plain Catholic)
Mt 24:35
Proverbs 18:2 A fool does not delight in understanding but only in revealing his own mind.
1 Corinthians 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is folly with God
Mt 24:35
Proverbs 18:2 A fool does not delight in understanding but only in revealing his own mind.
1 Corinthians 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is folly with God
Re: Are We Saved By Our Acts Of Obedience?
Yes.Josh wrote:Isn’t choosing to believe / confessing with your mouth “doing something”, though?
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Re: Are We Saved By Our Acts Of Obedience?
I was just reading Galatians 3, and this might sound harsh but I could not help but think that the apostle Paul might aswell have inserted "Mennonites" or "Anabaptists" instead of "Galatians".Josh wrote:So if there is nothing men can do to be saved, will 100% of people be saved? If not, why not?Paul wrote:Why do so many people not understand that our works cannot save us, not even partially. We are justified in God's sight because of genuine faith in Jesus Christ, this is what the Bible teaches so clearly - no need to add works to the equation because God has lifted off that impossible burden for salvation. The entire book of Galatians is devoted to this very topic! Now obviously that genuine faith will love Christ and will bring forth fruit etc. - but please - Amish or not - stop putting the cart before (or next to) the horse!
Galatians 3:1-3 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
Don't get me wrong, I admire true godly dedication to following Christ - and it seems the early Anabaptists sincerely had that as a result of a living faith in Jesus Christ. But I am afraid modern Anabaptism can well use the rebuke of the apostle Paul in Galatians that what the forefathers have begun in the Spirit should not be perfected in the flesh, just as modern Evangelicalism can use the rebuke of James that faith without works is dead.
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Re: Are We Saved By Our Acts Of Obedience?
Paul,
As a Mennonite, I suggest you dial in to our revival services some week. The preaching is on justification by faith alone, salvation by Jesus’ work, and the futility of a works based salvation.
As a Mennonite, I suggest you dial in to our revival services some week. The preaching is on justification by faith alone, salvation by Jesus’ work, and the futility of a works based salvation.
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Re: Are We Saved By Our Acts Of Obedience?
Not addressed to me but do I understand what you are saying is that all of the 'rules of conduct' or whatever they are called in your church have to do with on-going sanctification (best practises in following Jesus) and not justification. If correct, is this the most common understanding of those who consider themselves 'conservative Christians' or do many preach there is a level of obedience required (works) to 'remain saved' ?Josh wrote:Paul,
As a Mennonite, I suggest you dial in to our revival services some week. The preaching is on justification by faith alone, salvation by Jesus’ work, and the futility of a works based salvation.
The way you worded the preaching in those revival services would be the kind of services I would support.
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Pursuing a Kingdom life in the Spirit