Are We Saved By Our Acts Of Obedience?

General Christian Theology

Are we justified before God by our acts of obedience?

 
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Sudsy
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Re: Are We Saved By Our Acts Of Obedience?

Post by Sudsy »

Wade wrote: While the son was living to his own will he was lost and dead. It was never that the father didn't love him, it was rather the sons acts of disobedience is what separated himself from the father.
And what was this separation ? Was He no longer a son ? Does lost and dead mean equivalent to losing his salvation ? I see this as the son separated himself from the relationship he once had as father and son. He was what we might call 'backslidden' or a wandering sheep. In the Revelation Jesus is pictured as standing at the door and knocking. The text is speaking to a Christian. The relationship is dead, as it is not alive at that time. But when we repent, which means to turn, as the son came to his senses and returned home or when we open the door of our heart to renew that relationship, Jesus is there to restore it.

Some here likely would say this prodigal son, or a backslider, has lost his salvation by wandering off for a period to do his thing. A period of disobedience. And what did this disobedience teach him through sufferings ? That there are consequences in disobeying. But the son still knew he was in the family. He had gone the route of learning to obey the hard way.

This was my own experience. I never lost my belief in Jesus and knew He was standing at the door of my heart ready to renew relationship. To me, it was like Jesus saying 'Are you through yet, have you learned why obedience is the right path ?' When I turned for home, I experienced what the prodigal son experienced. Regardless of my unloving treatment of my father and family, God still loved me, came running to meet me and welcomed me back with open arms restoring that father and son relationship.

So this might sound like I believe once a son always a son or OSAS. No, I also think I could have turned my back on God completely and as it were, totally rejected ever being a son. Changed my identity and not wanting any more association with God. Then, I believe, God would give me what I choose.

Basically again the issue is can we disobey enough as a believer to forfeit our salvation ? Is there some unspecified level of obedience/works required to remain saved ? Some say yes and don't know just where that point of disobedience is reached. I believe only apostasy or what is called 'blasphemy against the Holy Spirit' is the only unpardonable sin. Specifically, how that is reached in one's heart, God knows.
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Wade
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Re: Are We Saved By Our Acts Of Obedience?

Post by Wade »

James 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
Jesus said:
Matthew 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
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GaryK
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Re: Are We Saved By Our Acts Of Obedience?

Post by GaryK »

Sudsy wrote:
GaryK wrote:
Sudsy wrote:
And if you apply this to my example of sharing the Gospel I gave, then am I to conclude that those who never share their faith Jesus says to them I don't love you ? I don't share that understanding of the love of God towards us. Even while we were yet sinners Christ died for us. I doubt many Christians tell God I know I am to share my faith with others but I'm just too afraid to do it and their actions reflect that refusal to obey. I can be convinced in my mind but it takes a step of faith to put it into practise. If we know what to do and don't do it we are sinning. Will this act of disobedience, this sin, cancel our membership in the Kingdom / lose our salvation ? Imo, 'no'. Will it have an adverse impact on our rewards as believers, 'yes'.
The example I shared is not about the parent loving the child or Jesus loving us. It's about the child's questionable love for the parents. Do you think Jesus will just simply accept as true every time a person says they love him or do you think he looks for responses that prove they love him?
I think if you read my posts carefully you will have my answer. We are not communicating well, imo.
Here is what I was responding to.
Sudsy wrote:And if you apply this to my example of sharing the Gospel I gave, then am I to conclude that those who never share their faith Jesus says to them I don't love you ?
I don't think anyone is questioning Jesus love for us when we don't obey or a parent's love for the child in the example I gave. What can be legitimately questioned according to the passages I referenced in 1 John is a believer's love for Jesus if he states that he loves God and is in a relationship with Him and yet steadfastly refuses to obey Jesus' commands. If our love for God can be legitimately questioned by our refusal to obey then this goes to the heart of whether or not we are in the Kingdom, on our way out or already out. I take it you don't agree.

Jesus could just as easily have only said "keep my commandments" but he directly links "keep my commandments" with US loving him. He says nothing about him loving us in this statement.

I take this to mean that Jesus is keenly interested in whether or not we obey his commands and concludes by our obedience or refusal to obey whether or not we love him.
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Hats Off
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Re: Are We Saved By Our Acts Of Obedience?

Post by Hats Off »

Sudsy wrote: Some here likely would say this prodigal son, or a backslider, has lost his salvation by wandering off for a period to do his thing. A period of disobedience. And what did this disobedience teach him through sufferings ? That there are consequences in disobeying. But the son still knew he was in the family. He had gone the route of learning to obey the hard way.

Basically again the issue is can we disobey enough as a believer to forfeit our salvation ? Is there some unspecified level of obedience/works required to remain saved ? Some say yes and don't know just where that point of disobedience is reached. I believe only apostasy or what is called 'blasphemy against the Holy Spirit' is the only unpardonable sin. Specifically, how that is reached in one's heart, God knows.
I go back to what I said much earlier Disobedience that is not repented of, may cause the loss of salvation.
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Sudsy
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Re: Are We Saved By Our Acts Of Obedience?

Post by Sudsy »

GaryK wrote:
Sudsy wrote:
GaryK wrote: The example I shared is not about the parent loving the child or Jesus loving us. It's about the child's questionable love for the parents. Do you think Jesus will just simply accept as true every time a person says they love him or do you think he looks for responses that prove they love him?
I think if you read my posts carefully you will have my answer. We are not communicating well, imo.
Here is what I was responding to.
Sudsy wrote:And if you apply this to my example of sharing the Gospel I gave, then am I to conclude that those who never share their faith Jesus says to them I don't love you ?
I don't think anyone is questioning Jesus love for us when we don't obey or a parent's love for the child in the example I gave. What can be legitimately questioned according to the passages I referenced in 1 John is a believer's love for Jesus if he states that he loves God and is in a relationship with Him and yet steadfastly refuses to obey Jesus' commands. If our love for God can be legitimately questioned by our refusal to obey then this goes to the heart of whether or not we are in the Kingdom, on our way out or already out. I take it you don't agree.

OK, I will try again. If you are saying that a believer must obey all of Jesus commands (and there is the whole issue of which commands apply to whom) to be a member of the Kingdom of God, then, I disagree. I gave an example of sharing our faith with the lost and if this is one of these necessary commands to be in the Kingdom ( 'a Kingdom rule'), then many that may agree this command pertains to all of us are living in disobedience in that area. They are breaking a 'Kingdom rule' as you put it and your belief is this puts them outside Kingdom membership. I believe this does not mean they don't love Jesus and are obedient in many other areas. They don't love Him enough to obey in that specific area. They will miss out on the blessings of Kingdom life in that area.

Jesus could just as easily have only said "keep my commandments" but he directly links "keep my commandments" with US loving him. He says nothing about him loving us in this statement.

I take this to mean that Jesus is keenly interested in whether or not we obey his commands and concludes by our obedience or refusal to obey whether or not we love him.

I take this to mean that Jesus is keenly interested in whether or not we obey his commands and concludes by our obedience or refusal to obey just how much we love Him. Love is not, either you do or you don't. Love has degrees. We sing hymns like 'More love for thee' and many others that recognizes our love for God is not a fixed issue.

I don't know if we are still not understanding each other on this but I have pretty much run out of ideas to explain it another way.

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Sudsy
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Re: Are We Saved By Our Acts Of Obedience?

Post by Sudsy »

Wade wrote:
James 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
Jesus said:
Matthew 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Good scriptures. Good works are the fruit of faith in Christ or without good works our 'faith' is not a saving faith. Saving faith will produce good works. These verses make it clear that what you profess to be may not be who abides in you. Either we have the Holy Spirit abiding in us, who has made our spirit alive in Christ and causes us to pursue doing God's will, or we are all talk and no walk.

So back to the question - are we saved by our acts of obedience ? Just as faith without works is dead, good works without faith is dead. But according to Ephesians 2:8-9 "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." It is God's grace through faith and this faith produces good works but as it says works cannot save anyone. Otherwise we would be boasting about the good works we do. God gives us a new heart in the new birth that results in good works. Salvation is a gift of God not something we earned and not something we hang unto by how perfect we obey. That is my view.
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silentreader
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Re: Are We Saved By Our Acts Of Obedience?

Post by silentreader »

Sudsy wrote:
Wade wrote:
James 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
Jesus said:
Matthew 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Good scriptures. Good works are the fruit of faith in Christ or without good works our 'faith' is not a saving faith. Saving faith will produce good works. These verses make it clear that what you profess to be may not be who abides in you. Either we have the Holy Spirit abiding in us, who has made our spirit alive in Christ and causes us to pursue doing God's will, or we are all talk and no walk.

So back to the question - are we saved by our acts of obedience ? Just as faith without works is dead, good works without faith is dead. But according to Ephesians 2:8-9 "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." It is God's grace through faith and this faith produces good works but as it says works cannot save anyone. Otherwise we would be boasting about the good works we do. God gives us a new heart in the new birth that results in good works. Salvation is a gift of God not something we earned and not something we hang unto by how perfect we obey. That is my view.
The point in Ephesians 2 is incomplete if you don't include v.10.
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GaryK
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Re: Are We Saved By Our Acts Of Obedience?

Post by GaryK »

Sudsy wrote:I believe this does not mean they don't love Jesus and are obedient in many other areas. They don't love Him enough to obey in that specific area. They will miss out on the blessings of Kingdom life in that area.
I would really like to see some scriptural backing for this view.
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Sudsy
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Re: Are We Saved By Our Acts Of Obedience?

Post by Sudsy »

silentreader wrote:
The point in Ephesians 2 is incomplete if you don't include v.10.
Amen !
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GaryK
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Re: Are We Saved By Our Acts Of Obedience?

Post by GaryK »

GaryK wrote: What can be legitimately questioned according to the passages I referenced in 1 John is a believer's love for Jesus if he states that he loves God and is in a relationship with Him and yet steadfastly refuses to obey Jesus' commands.
Sudsy wrote: If you are saying that a believer must obey all of Jesus commands (and there is the whole issue of which commands apply to whom) to be a member of the Kingdom of God, then, I disagree.
In this whole discussion I have not even given my view about obeying all the commands of Jesus yet you keep coming back to it as though this is what I've been promoting.

What I have been focused on is what happens to a believers relationship with God if he refuses to obey commands he is convinced are Kingdom rules. The following verse comes to mind.
James 4:17 NKJV 17 Therefore, to him who knows to do good and does not do it, to him it is sin.
You seem to be saying that such a sin cannot lead to removal from the Kingdom and if that's what you are saying then that's OSAS IMO. In your response to Wade you suggested the prodigal son did not lose his place in the family but he could have if he had chosen to renounce his family identity. How can you be sure he didn't do that? I think it appears he did do that by requesting his portion of the inheritance and walking out of his father's Kingdom. He also seems to suggest that this is what he had done by declaring that he was not worthy to be a part of the family.

I think I recall in other threads you being quite strong on the Kingdom rule that all Christians should be involved in spreading the gospel. I question why you think this if it's every one to his own convictions. Yet when others promote things like feet washing being a Kingdom rule you push back and start talking about a works based salvation. Why the difference?

I think I've made myself pretty clear on where I stand on this issue of refusing to obey Kingdom rules and I've tried to back up what I've been saying with scriptures. I think we have reached a point where there's not much use in us continuing this discussion so I will bow out.
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