Are We Saved By Our Acts Of Obedience?

General Christian Theology

Are we justified before God by our acts of obedience?

 
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silentreader
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Re: Are We Saved By Our Acts Of Obedience?

Post by silentreader »

GaryK wrote:
Sudsy wrote:
GaryK wrote:Sudsy, do you think it's possible to love Jesus and at the same time consciously refuse to submit to his commandments? Jesus said "If you love me keep my commandments". Doesn't this parallel with the two encompassing commandments you keep mentioning?
I believe when Jesus said "If you love me keep my commandments", He was saying actions speak louder than words. All the praise and worship we might do is meaningless if our acts of loving Him through our deeds are not evident. There is a verse that says something like 'these people honor Me with their lips but their hearts are far from Me'.

Question - do you view all the commandments in the NT to be the ones requiring submitting to ?

Here is an Internet quote I haven't checked out for accuracy but it says this -
There are 1,050 commands in the New Testament for Christians to obey. Due to repetitions we can classify them under about 800 headings. They cover every phase of man's life in his relationship to God and his fellowmen, now and hereafter.


Have any of us submitted to all of these ? I think the obvious answer is 'no'. Are there any we "consciously refuse to submit to" ? Imo, 'yes'. I gave a few possible areas in previous posts regarding spiritual gift desiring and how Paul said to run a church meeting.

So, yes, I think it is very possible and is actually what occurs in our loving Jesus. We are imperfect in our love for Him and others. Sanctification and becoming more like Jesus is a life long pursuit and in some areas, if we new each other better, we could challenge if we are submitting or not.

Jesus love is a perfect love for us. God is love. Ours is imperfect for Him but as it grows we find more ways of expressing our love for Him.
I don't think you are understanding my question. Let's say through the reading of Jesus' teaching in the Sermon on the Mount a believer becomes completely convinced that non-resistance is one of the rules of the Kingdom. They see this rule being modeled through Jesus' example and the example of many in the early church. But they consciously decide that they cannot and will not embrace this rule. Is it possible for them to love Jesus and take such a stance? Do you think Jesus would say that such a person loves him?
Let's simplify. Can Jesus be Savior without being Lord?
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Sudsy
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Re: Are We Saved By Our Acts Of Obedience?

Post by Sudsy »

GaryK wrote: I don't think you are understanding my question. Let's say through the reading of Jesus' teaching in the Sermon on the Mount a believer becomes completely convinced that non-resistance is one of the rules of the Kingdom. They see this rule being modeled through Jesus' example and the example of many in the early church. But they consciously decide that they cannot and will not embrace this rule. Is it possible for them to love Jesus and take such a stance? Do you think Jesus would say that such a person loves him?
If a child was completely convinced they should not tell a lie but there is an opportunity for them to lie and not obey what they know is the right thing to do, would the parent say 'you don't love me because you lied' ? We do not always do what we know we should do and willfully disobey.

I don't think this is a black and white issue on whether we love Jesus or not. We can love Him but it is not a perfected love. Many here, perhaps most I hope, would agree that we should be sharing our faith with others to win them to the Lord. However, how many of us have been doing this faithfully ? And why not if we know we should be ? Isn't this willful disobedience ? We may say by our actions that I know I should but I am uncomfortable doing this and will not attempt to do this. Is Jesus saying then 'you don't love me' or then 'you are not my disciple' or 'you broke a rule so you are out of the family'? What is Jesus willing to accept in our flawed obeying ? Imo, He puts up with a great deal with His child that might have certain problem areas of surrender, yet they still believe in Him and love Him in their flawed ways.

Does this answer your question ? You may not agree but this is my way of looking at this.
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GaryK
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Re: Are We Saved By Our Acts Of Obedience?

Post by GaryK »

Sudsy wrote:
GaryK wrote: I don't think you are understanding my question. Let's say through the reading of Jesus' teaching in the Sermon on the Mount a believer becomes completely convinced that non-resistance is one of the rules of the Kingdom. They see this rule being modeled through Jesus' example and the example of many in the early church. But they consciously decide that they cannot and will not embrace this rule. Is it possible for them to love Jesus and take such a stance? Do you think Jesus would say that such a person loves him?
If a child was completely convinced they should not tell a lie but there is an opportunity for them to lie and not obey what they know is the right thing to do, would the parent say 'you don't love me because you lied' ? We do not always do what we know we should do and willfully disobey.

I don't think this is a black and white issue on whether we love Jesus or not. We can love Him but it is not a perfected love. Many here, perhaps most I hope, would agree that we should be sharing our faith with others to win them to the Lord. However, how many of us have been doing this faithfully ? And why not if we know we should be ? Isn't this willful disobedience ? We may say by our actions that I know I should but I am uncomfortable doing this and will not attempt to do this. Is Jesus saying then 'you don't love me' or then 'you are not my disciple' or 'you broke a rule so you are out of the family'? What is Jesus willing to accept in our flawed obeying ? Imo, He puts up with a great deal with His child that might have certain problem areas of surrender, yet they still believe in Him and love Him in their flawed ways.

Does this answer your question ? You may not agree but this is my way of looking at this.
If a child tells the parent "I love and honor you and want to do what you want me to do but I'm not going to quit lying and disobeying you" I am quite sure the first part of the statement will mean nothing to the parent and the parent will say "If you love and honor me and want to do what I want you to do then you will at least attempt to quit lying and disobeying, otherwise I will have to conclude that you don't love and honor me and want to do what I want you to do".
John 14:15 NKJV 15 "If you love Me, keep My commandments.
The following verses are really quite unambiguous. And notice HOW the love of God is perfected in us. The love of God/Jesus is made more complete by keeping his commandments/word.
1 John 2:3-6 NKJV 3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, "I know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. 6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.
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MaxPC
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Re: Are We Saved By Our Acts Of Obedience?

Post by MaxPC »

Sudsy wrote:
MaxPC wrote:
Sudsy wrote:
I think some view these acts that bring salvation whereas others view these as fruits of salvation.
Agreed. As a footnote, in Catholic World we view these as necessary fruits of accepting Christ as Savior and living out our discipleship. Our teaching on this is drawn from Matthew 3:9-11:
9 And do not presume to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father,’ for I tell you, God is able from these stones to raise up children for Abraham. 10 Even now the axe is laid to the root of the trees. Every tree therefore that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

11 “I baptize you with water for repentance, but he who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
What I underlined - is it necessary to do prison ministry then to be saved ? I think you mean fruits such as these are the fruit of a true believer, Yes ?
Sudsy, I don't think it needs to be prison ministry per se. Christ saved us but we also believe that we in turn must express our hope in that salvation by actually living out that mercy we received (bearing fruit). We try to be a sign of that faith, hope and mercy to others. As we do in Catholic World, we've had our legions of theologians, Scripture experts and clergy spending centuries parsing these meanings and passing those definitions on to through our own Deposit of Faith. They've defined two types of "works of mercy": corporal and spiritual. Matthew 3 is part of an entire study of Matthew on this topic for us.

If you're interested here's an expansion on the corporal and spiritual works of mercy at the website of the US Catholic Bishops. They give some concrete examples of how Catholics should enact these teachings in our lives. Though not comprehensive, these are for spurring us on to bear fruit in our faith. Not all of it will match your theology because in essence, everyone's "mileage" varies somewhat in Scripture. Nevertheless, I think you'll recognize some of these as similar to your own understandings.
The Corporal Works of Mercy
The Spiritual Works of Mercy
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Sudsy
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Re: Are We Saved By Our Acts Of Obedience?

Post by Sudsy »

GaryK wrote: If a child tells the parent "I love and honor you and want to do what you want me to do but I'm not going to quit lying and disobeying you" I am quite sure the first part of the statement will mean nothing to the parent and the parent will say "If you love and honor me and want to do what I want you to do then you will at least attempt to quit lying and disobeying, otherwise I will have to conclude that you don't love and honor me and want to do what I want you to do".

And if you apply this to my example of sharing the Gospel I gave, then am I to conclude that those who never share their faith Jesus says to them I don't love you ? I don't share that understanding of the love of God towards us. Even while we were yet sinners Christ died for us. I doubt many Christians tell God I know I am to share my faith with others but I'm just too afraid to do it and their actions reflect that refusal to obey. I can be convinced in my mind but it takes a step of faith to put it into practise. If we know what to do and don't do it we are sinning. Will this act of disobedience, this sin, cancel our membership in the Kingdom / lose our salvation ? Imo, 'no'. Will it have an adverse impact on our rewards as believers, 'yes'.
John 14:15 NKJV 15 "If you love Me, keep My commandments.
The following verses are really quite unambiguous. And notice HOW the love of God is perfected in us. The love of God/Jesus is made more complete by keeping his commandments/word.

Notice the verse before this one speaking to believers - "My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.'

As believers, when we disobey, Jesus is our Advocate to deal with those sins. The blood of Christ goes on cleansing us of all our sins. We are not kicked out of the Kingdom. If we turn away from Jesus as our Saviour, Lord and Advocate, then that is not holding unto the gift of salvation.

1 John 2:3-6 NKJV 3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, "I know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. 6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.
This verse says to me, just calling yourself a Christ follower and ignoring His commandments shows you are not really a Christ follower that has been born again. What it doesn't say, imo, is that only those who keep every one of the 1,050 NT commandments will be saved. No more than those in the OT who were to keep some 613 OT commandments. Nor does it say if you stubbornly fail to obey some command, Jesus considers you don't love Him anymore. Revelation speaks about one church needing to return to their 'first love' for Christ. Often a first love for Christ is willing to do whatever Jesus says without questions. Stubbornness and/or laziness towards obedience often shows up later.

I agree the greater our love for Christ is the less we will sin and the more we will obey what God wants us to be and do. This love for Christ must first be placed in our hearts by God and then it grows as we get to know God better. It is a love that is perfected through our obedience. Obedience is a learned thing. Scripture even says Jesus learned obedience and He learned it through sufferings. As we apply what the scripture says to our lives through the challenges and sufferings of this life we too learn how obedience brings out the abundant life God has for us. We learn the 'whys' of being obedient.

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Sudsy
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Re: Are We Saved By Our Acts Of Obedience?

Post by Sudsy »

MaxPC wrote:
Sudsy wrote:
MaxPC wrote: Agreed. As a footnote, in Catholic World we view these as necessary fruits of accepting Christ as Savior and living out our discipleship. Our teaching on this is drawn from Matthew 3:9-11:
What I underlined - is it necessary to do prison ministry then to be saved ? I think you mean fruits such as these are the fruit of a true believer, Yes ?
Sudsy, I don't think it needs to be prison ministry per se. Christ saved us but we also believe that we in turn must express our hope in that salvation by actually living out that mercy we received (bearing fruit). We try to be a sign of that faith, hope and mercy to others. As we do in Catholic World, we've had our legions of theologians, Scripture experts and clergy spending centuries parsing these meanings and passing those definitions on to through our own Deposit of Faith. They've defined two types of "works of mercy": corporal and spiritual. Matthew 3 is part of an entire study of Matthew on this topic for us.

If you're interested here's an expansion on the corporal and spiritual works of mercy at the website of the US Catholic Bishops. They give some concrete examples of how Catholics should enact these teachings in our lives. Though not comprehensive, these are for spurring us on to bear fruit in our faith. Not all of it will match your theology because in essence, everyone's "mileage" varies somewhat in Scripture. Nevertheless, I think you'll recognize some of these as similar to your own understandings.
The Corporal Works of Mercy
The Spiritual Works of Mercy
Thanks Max. I am a bit familiar with these categories of works but I will review them in those links to refresh my memory.
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GaryK
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Re: Are We Saved By Our Acts Of Obedience?

Post by GaryK »

Sudsy wrote:
GaryK wrote: If a child tells the parent "I love and honor you and want to do what you want me to do but I'm not going to quit lying and disobeying you" I am quite sure the first part of the statement will mean nothing to the parent and the parent will say "If you love and honor me and want to do what I want you to do then you will at least attempt to quit lying and disobeying, otherwise I will have to conclude that you don't love and honor me and want to do what I want you to do".

And if you apply this to my example of sharing the Gospel I gave, then am I to conclude that those who never share their faith Jesus says to them I don't love you ? I don't share that understanding of the love of God towards us. Even while we were yet sinners Christ died for us. I doubt many Christians tell God I know I am to share my faith with others but I'm just too afraid to do it and their actions reflect that refusal to obey. I can be convinced in my mind but it takes a step of faith to put it into practise. If we know what to do and don't do it we are sinning. Will this act of disobedience, this sin, cancel our membership in the Kingdom / lose our salvation ? Imo, 'no'. Will it have an adverse impact on our rewards as believers, 'yes'.
John 14:15 NKJV 15 "If you love Me, keep My commandments.
The following verses are really quite unambiguous. And notice HOW the love of God is perfected in us. The love of God/Jesus is made more complete by keeping his commandments/word.

Notice the verse before this one speaking to believers - "My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.'

As believers, when we disobey, Jesus is our Advocate to deal with those sins. The blood of Christ goes on cleansing us of all our sins. We are not kicked out of the Kingdom. If we turn away from Jesus as our Saviour, Lord and Advocate, then that is not holding unto the gift of salvation.

1 John 2:3-6 NKJV 3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, "I know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. 6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.
This verse says to me, just calling yourself a Christ follower and ignoring His commandments shows you are not really a Christ follower that has been born again. What it doesn't say, imo, is that only those who keep every one of the 1,050 NT commandments will be saved. No more than those in the OT who were to keep some 613 OT commandments. Nor does it say if you stubbornly fail to obey some command, Jesus considers you don't love Him anymore. Revelation speaks about one church needing to return to their 'first love' for Christ. Often a first love for Christ is willing to do whatever Jesus says without questions. Stubbornness and/or laziness towards obedience often shows up later.

I agree the greater our love for Christ is the less we will sin and the more we will obey what God wants us to be and do. This love for Christ must first be placed in our hearts by God and then it grows as we get to know God better. It is a love that is perfected through our obedience. Obedience is a learned thing. Scripture even says Jesus learned obedience and He learned it through sufferings. As we apply what the scripture says to our lives through the challenges and sufferings of this life we too learn how obedience brings out the abundant life God has for us. We learn the 'whys' of being obedient.

I will simply let those verses speak for themselves with the exception that it seems very clear he is speaking to believers, not people who haven't been born again as you are implying. They don't need a lot of explanation especially on what they don't say.
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GaryK
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Re: Are We Saved By Our Acts Of Obedience?

Post by GaryK »

Sudsy wrote:
GaryK wrote: If a child tells the parent "I love and honor you and want to do what you want me to do but I'm not going to quit lying and disobeying you" I am quite sure the first part of the statement will mean nothing to the parent and the parent will say "If you love and honor me and want to do what I want you to do then you will at least attempt to quit lying and disobeying, otherwise I will have to conclude that you don't love and honor me and want to do what I want you to do".
And if you apply this to my example of sharing the Gospel I gave, then am I to conclude that those who never share their faith Jesus says to them I don't love you ? I don't share that understanding of the love of God towards us. Even while we were yet sinners Christ died for us. I doubt many Christians tell God I know I am to share my faith with others but I'm just too afraid to do it and their actions reflect that refusal to obey. I can be convinced in my mind but it takes a step of faith to put it into practise. If we know what to do and don't do it we are sinning. Will this act of disobedience, this sin, cancel our membership in the Kingdom / lose our salvation ? Imo, 'no'. Will it have an adverse impact on our rewards as believers, 'yes'.
The example I shared is not about the parent loving the child or Jesus loving us. It's about the child's questionable love for the parents. Do you think Jesus will just simply accept as true every time a person says they love him or do you think he looks for responses that prove they love him?
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Wade
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Re: Are We Saved By Our Acts Of Obedience?

Post by Wade »

GaryK wrote:
Sudsy wrote: If a child tells the parent "I love and honor you and want to do what you want me to do but I'm not going to quit lying and disobeying you" I am quite sure the first part of the statement will mean nothing to the parent and the parent will say "If you love and honor me and want to do what I want you to do then you will at least attempt to quit lying and disobeying, otherwise I will have to conclude that you don't love and honor me and want to do what I want you to do".
And if you apply this to my example of sharing the Gospel I gave, then am I to conclude that those who never share their faith Jesus says to them I don't love you ? I don't share that understanding of the love of God towards us. Even while we were yet sinners Christ died for us. I doubt many Christians tell God I know I am to share my faith with others but I'm just too afraid to do it and their actions reflect that refusal to obey. I can be convinced in my mind but it takes a step of faith to put it into practise. If we know what to do and don't do it we are sinning. Will this act of disobedience, this sin, cancel our membership in the Kingdom / lose our salvation ? Imo, 'no'. Will it have an adverse impact on our rewards as believers, 'yes'.
Again repentance is about coming to Him and never was about Him not loving us or disowning us.
Luke 15:10 Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth.
11 And he said, A certain man had two sons:
12 And the younger of them said to his father, Father, give me the portion of goods that falleth to me. And he divided unto them his living.
13 And not many days after the younger son gathered all together, and took his journey into a far country, and there wasted his substance with riotous living.
14 And when he had spent all, there arose a mighty famine in that land; and he began to be in want.
15 And he went and joined himself to a citizen of that country; and he sent him into his fields to feed swine.
16 And he would fain have filled his belly with the husks that the swine did eat: and no man gave unto him.
17 And when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger!
18 I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee,
19 And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants.
20 And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.
21 And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son.
22 But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet:
23 And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill it; and let us eat, and be merry:
24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.
25 Now his elder son was in the field: and as he came and drew nigh to the house, he heard musick and dancing.
26 And he called one of the servants, and asked what these things meant.
27 And he said unto him, Thy brother is come; and thy father hath killed the fatted calf, because he hath received him safe and sound.
28 And he was angry, and would not go in: therefore came his father out, and intreated him.
29 And he answering said to his father, Lo, these many years do I serve thee, neither transgressed I at any time thy commandment: and yet thou never gavest me a kid, that I might make merry with my friends:
30 But as soon as this thy son was come, which hath devoured thy living with harlots, thou hast killed for him the fatted calf.
31 And he said unto him, Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine.
32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.
While the son was living to his own will he was lost and dead. It was never that the father didn't love him, it was rather the sons acts of disobedience is what separated himself from the father.
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Sudsy
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Re: Are We Saved By Our Acts Of Obedience?

Post by Sudsy »

GaryK wrote:
Sudsy wrote:
GaryK wrote: If a child tells the parent "I love and honor you and want to do what you want me to do but I'm not going to quit lying and disobeying you" I am quite sure the first part of the statement will mean nothing to the parent and the parent will say "If you love and honor me and want to do what I want you to do then you will at least attempt to quit lying and disobeying, otherwise I will have to conclude that you don't love and honor me and want to do what I want you to do".
And if you apply this to my example of sharing the Gospel I gave, then am I to conclude that those who never share their faith Jesus says to them I don't love you ? I don't share that understanding of the love of God towards us. Even while we were yet sinners Christ died for us. I doubt many Christians tell God I know I am to share my faith with others but I'm just too afraid to do it and their actions reflect that refusal to obey. I can be convinced in my mind but it takes a step of faith to put it into practise. If we know what to do and don't do it we are sinning. Will this act of disobedience, this sin, cancel our membership in the Kingdom / lose our salvation ? Imo, 'no'. Will it have an adverse impact on our rewards as believers, 'yes'.
The example I shared is not about the parent loving the child or Jesus loving us. It's about the child's questionable love for the parents. Do you think Jesus will just simply accept as true every time a person says they love him or do you think he looks for responses that prove they love him?
I think if you read my posts carefully you will have my answer. We are not communicating well, imo.
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