Are We Saved By Our Acts Of Obedience?

General Christian Theology

Are we justified before God by our acts of obedience?

 
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GaryK
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Re: Are We Saved By Our Acts Of Obedience?

Post by GaryK »

Sudsy wrote:
GaryK wrote:Sudsy, along with my last post I want to add that I once heard a OSAS preacher state that after you have been born again you can commit any sin from the sin of adultery to the sin of murder and it will not affect your eternal destiny.

You say that you agree that it's dangerous to refuse to submit to Kingdom rules but what is dangerous about it if doing so can't lead to being removed from the Kingdom?
What is dangerous is what God might allow to happen to get your attention to submit. The Christians in the church at Corinth were mis-treating other Christians when they came together and got this warning when they took communion when they were not loving others as themselves and not properly regarding Christ's body (bold mine) - "That is why you should examine yourself before eating the bread and drinking the cup. For if you eat the bread or drink the cup without honoring the body of Christ, you are eating and drinking God’s judgment upon yourself. That is why many of you are weak and sick and some have even died.

There are consequences, even an early death, if a believer takes obedience lightly. Sounds dangerous to me.
Still sounds like OSAS to me. What is dangerous about an early death if we will still get to go to heaven?
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RZehr
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Re: Are We Saved By Our Acts Of Obedience?

Post by RZehr »

This passage is about faith-
Romans 11:22
Behold the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou shalt be cut off.

Two things are clear to me here.
1. There are people that were grafted into the vine. Today we would say they have been born again.
2. Without continuing in his goodness these same people that were grafted in shall be cut off. So this means that if we don’t continue in faith, we will be cut off.

James 2:20
But wilt thou know O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

James 2:24
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Trying to determine the exact, and precise amount of disobedience we can get by with without being cutoff is typically the kind of approach that reveals a soul that is not following hard after God.
The soul that has a desire to search out from the scriptures directions on how God wants us to be, and lives according to them will have a much better outcome.
Some of this persons actions is a natural action of his new nature or heading the Holy Spirit. But some of his obedience is simply because of a new heart that wants to please and honor God in obedience to what is found in the word, things that need to be taught.
John 13:17 says about feet washing - If ye know these things, happy are ye if ye do them.
Sounds to me like there is a blessing in feet washing.
The more mature Christians become, the more we learn that obedience is actually a blessing and is done out of eagerness to obey. It isn’t done out of fear.
We don’t worry about going to hell for missing some detail. We eagerly and happily obey because we learned that it’s their for our own good.
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Wade
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Re: Are We Saved By Our Acts Of Obedience?

Post by Wade »

Sudsy wrote:
GaryK wrote: Jesus said "If you love me, keep my commandments". That seems to be a pretty important Kingdom rule. You can't claim to love Jesus and be unwilling to submit at the same time. If submission is what gets us in then it would follow that submission also keeps us in. I say this recognizing that no one is ever fully mature immediately upon being born again. But it's a dangerous thing to be made aware of Kingdom rules that we are not following and then not to submit to them.

I suppose the people Jesus is referencing here would say that "works" are pretty important to staying saved.
Matthew 25:31-46 NKJV 31 "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 "All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 "And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 "Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 'for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 'I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.' 37 "Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 38 'When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 'Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?' 40 "And the King will answer and say to them, 'Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.' 41 "Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 'for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 'I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.' 44 "Then they also will answer Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?' 45 "Then He will answer them, saying, 'Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.' 46 "And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
And this is where we differ. If I understand you correctly you believe that submitting to everything we believe the NT says as a command is how we 'keep saved'. I don't. In the above story I read this as Jesus saying the 'righteous' (believers) are the one's who do good deeds as an outcome of their faith in Christ. Jesus gives some examples of what these deeds look like. Those on His 'left hand' (the Democrats :lol: , said jokingly) have a dead faith as James would put it. A faith that will not save us. They have not truly repented as repentance is a turning to follow Christ and good deeds are the results that follow a changed heart (being born again).

You said - "But it's a dangerous thing to be made aware of Kingdom rules that we are not following and then not to submit to them." I agree but not to the point of keeping us 'in the Kingdom'. When we do not submit in some area (and imo and view of the NT commanding statements, none of us submit fully to Jesus as Lord) then scripture says God disciplines those He loves. He doesn't disown us. But we may go through some hard lessons to learn obedience. Been there, done that, still going through that process.
The bolded caught my attention.
I have never heard anyone who isn't OSAS say that it is God disowning us. I think it is more of us disowning Him if anything and therefore we are cut off. If we didn't have the ability to disown Him wouldn't that mean that our freewill would be taken away and nullify the reciprocal loving relationship in the first place?
In Romans chapter 8 the scriptures ask what shall seperate us from the love of God? And then names almost everything. The one thing not mentioned is answered in James 1 where we hear it is me personally that can be drawn away from Him.
It may be possible to believe our faith saves us rather than faith in Him and His sacrifice does.
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Hats Off
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Re: Are We Saved By Our Acts Of Obedience?

Post by Hats Off »

Sudsy, do we understand then that the Lord's Supper should be practised every time we meet based on scriptures like Matt 26:26-29 and Luke 22: 19-20. but we should consider John 13: 1-17 as relating only to the practice and culture of that day?

Is 1 Cor. 11: 2-15 only relating to the culture of that day while verses 23-26 should be observed every time we assemble for worship?

How should we differentiate?
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Sudsy
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Re: Are We Saved By Our Acts Of Obedience?

Post by Sudsy »

[quote="GaryK"]
So then I think I'm hearing you say that not submitting to Kingdom rules can affect our salvation. I thought earlier you were saying the two are separate.

Sorry, my thoughts don't seem to be explained well in my postings. These things you call 'Kingdom rules' I interpret you as saying that there are some rules that must be followed to remain a Kingdom citizen. However, you don't know just at what point one can break these 'member breaking rules' and lose their membership. I am not saying obedience is not important. But I believe it is not the breaking of some rules that keep us members other than our own turning in our membership card because we just don't believe in Jesus anymore. So, regarding salvation, I believe it is a gift to be received. Since I don't believe free choice goes away when we are born again, we can return this gift, so to speak. What I view in 'returning the gift' is to turn your back on Jesus as Lord and Saviour and not it being some other undetermined points of failure to obey.

The OSAS preacher I heard in a debate clearly stated something different than the OSAS people you know.

OSAS folk are often TULIP Calvinists who believe God chooses who to save; since man is so depraved man will not be even capable of having salvation until God first of all changes the heart of those He has decided of His own free will to save; salvation then is limited to those God chooses to save; they will be saved because these new hearts makes it irresistible to reject the gift and finally since it is all God's work in our being saved, we are OSAS as God will complete in that person what He began. The OSAS folk I know if confronted with a Hebrew text that one 'can fall away from the faith' or become unsaved explain this text to mean the person that supposedly fell away was never truly saved in the first place. Romans 9 is one of their favourite texts to support their beliefs.

Anyway, only a few here I suspect are TULIP Calvinists. However, I also suspect than there are those who believe a certain degree of disobedience will forfeit one's salvation. I am not one of those.
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Hats Off
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Re: Are We Saved By Our Acts Of Obedience?

Post by Hats Off »

So a certain degree of disobedience will not affect our salvation? Even wilful disobedience - or only if it is because we understand incorrectly?
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Sudsy
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Re: Are We Saved By Our Acts Of Obedience?

Post by Sudsy »

Hats Off wrote:Sudsy, do we understand then that the Lord's Supper should be practised every time we meet based on scriptures like Matt 26:26-29 and Luke 22: 19-20. but we should consider John 13: 1-17 as relating only to the practice and culture of that day?

Is 1 Cor. 11: 2-15 only relating to the culture of that day while verses 23-26 should be observed every time we assemble for worship?

How should we differentiate?
I would question the communion texts as being required 'every time we meet' and don't see this culturally related. Symbolic areas such as foot washing, head covering and the holy kiss were related to what went on in that culture. However, just how another Christian decides to honor God in doing these things, is not anything I believe should be seen as an act of disobedience that might cause one to lose their salvation.

I believe God is more concerned about what symbols represent to us than the symbols themselves. In our group we have an open communion for all professing believers; other acts of service in place of foot washing; head coverings optional and of your choice; and a hearty handshake and/or hug in place of the holy kiss. Does that matter to God that we have symbols more related to our culture ? Some here say 'yes', others 'no'.

If we really want to return to the customs of Jesus time, perhaps we should consider a Christian way of having slaves, wearing of robes and sandals, no cars, dirt roads only, etc, etc. I do think most of this kind of thing is addressed in Romans 14. Allow everyone to serve the Lord as they believe the Spirit leads them.
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Hats Off
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Re: Are We Saved By Our Acts Of Obedience?

Post by Hats Off »

And I think we invoke Romans 14 way beyond what was intended. It can become an excuse or reason for just about anything. If one part of 1 Cor: 11 is only symbolic, why isn't the rest? Aside from using Romans 14, how can we judge this to be symbolic and that to be required or is everything symbolic? Is it all a matter of what we think in the heart?
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Sudsy
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Re: Are We Saved By Our Acts Of Obedience?

Post by Sudsy »

Hats Off wrote:So a certain degree of disobedience will not affect our salvation? Even wilful disobedience - or only if it is because we understand incorrectly?
I posit we all are willfully disobedient to scripture and to other Spirit leadings. As Isaiah remarked when he saw the Lord high and lifted up - "Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts." If we saw the Lord like this I think we, too, would admit to just how wilfully disobedient we are. Our ego is still in the way defending our piety.

In a previous post I mentioned the 'earnestly desiring of spiritual gifts' as one of these commandments we might be willfully ignoring. And what about how we conduct our assembling ? Do we follow 1 Cor 14:26 - "What then shall we say, brothers and sisters? When you come together, each of you has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. Everything must be done so that the church may be built up." ? Or do we have our own format of basically allowing everyone to sing but then listening to the preacher ? Are we leaving any room for spiritual giftings to operate ? Generally speaking, no. We don't think this is a literal area of application. And there are many other areas so, are we willfully disobedient ? Well, not if we explain these things away from being literal.

I think scripture does say how we can grieve and quench the Spirit in our lives. We won't experience the quality of eternal life here and now that is made possible through Christ. Most churches, imo, have a form of godliness but are not seeing the power of God happening in a supernatural way. Sinners are not coming to repentance. Saints are grumbling, slandering, self focused, anxious, etc,etc . We need revival and let it begin in me.
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Sudsy
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Re: Are We Saved By Our Acts Of Obedience?

Post by Sudsy »

Hats Off wrote:And I think we invoke Romans 14 way beyond what was intended. It can become an excuse or reason for just about anything. If one part of 1 Cor: 11 is only symbolic, why isn't the rest? Aside from using Romans 14, how can we judge this to be symbolic and that to be required or is everything symbolic? Is it all a matter of what we think in the heart?
Perhaps looking at whether or not our practise is done as our acts of attempting to best fulfill those two summarizing commandments. God knows our motivating thoughts, our hearts. Personally, I don't have a problem with icons and prayer labyrinths and all kinds of music and what is modest wear, etc if it is done unto the Lord. It just seems to me we make Christianity too much into a set of defined practises rather than a relationship with God that leads us into working out our salvation to reflect these two fulfilling commandments. The tendency can be to develop a new set of laws to replace the OT 613 laws. To me, this is religion not relationship. Jesus focused on relationship with the Father and those He came to save.
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