Are We Saved By Our Acts Of Obedience?

General Christian Theology

Are we justified before God by our acts of obedience?

 
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MaxPC
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Re: Are We Saved By Our Acts Of Obedience?

Post by MaxPC »

The following made me think of this thread. It was one of the Scriptures read at Mass today.
[bible]Matthew 25, 31-46[/bible]
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GaryK
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Re: Are We Saved By Our Acts Of Obedience?

Post by GaryK »

Sudsy, do you think it's possible to love Jesus and at the same time consciously refuse to submit to his commandments? Jesus said "If you love me keep my commandments". Doesn't this parallel with the two encompassing commandments you keep mentioning?
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silentreader
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Re: Are We Saved By Our Acts Of Obedience?

Post by silentreader »

Sudsy wrote:
Hats Off wrote:Sudsy, do we understand then that the Lord's Supper should be practised every time we meet based on scriptures like Matt 26:26-29 and Luke 22: 19-20. but we should consider John 13: 1-17 as relating only to the practice and culture of that day?

Is 1 Cor. 11: 2-15 only relating to the culture of that day while verses 23-26 should be observed every time we assemble for worship?

How should we differentiate?
I would question the communion texts as being required 'every time we meet' and don't see this culturally related. Symbolic areas such as foot washing, head covering and the holy kiss were related to what went on in that culture. However, just how another Christian decides to honor God in doing these things, is not anything I believe should be seen as an act of disobedience that might cause one to lose their salvation.

I believe God is more concerned about what symbols represent to us than the symbols themselves. In our group we have an open communion for all professing believers; other acts of service in place of foot washing; head coverings optional and of your choice; and a hearty handshake and/or hug in place of the holy kiss. Does that matter to God that we have symbols more related to our culture ? Some here say 'yes', others 'no'.

If we really want to return to the customs of Jesus time, perhaps we should consider a Christian way of having slaves, wearing of robes and sandals, no cars, dirt roads only, etc, etc. I do think most of this kind of thing is addressed in Romans 14. Allow everyone to serve the Lord as they believe the Spirit leads them.[
Isn't that fairly extensive already? "Everyone did what was right in their own eyes"?
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Sudsy
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Re: Are We Saved By Our Acts Of Obedience?

Post by Sudsy »

MaxPC wrote:The following made me think of this thread. It was one of the Scriptures read at Mass today.
[bible]Matthew 25, 31-46[/bible]
I think some view these acts that bring salvation whereas others view these as fruits of salvation. The sheep were born sheep and the goats were born goats. The righteous are the sheep and the results of their being made righteous is how they served the Lord by examples Jesus gave. These works were ones done to the 'least of these my brothers' which is another way of showing how they received those that brought them the Gospel. They hadn't did these acts unto Jesus literally in their minds, yet Jesus explained that doing them unto the righteous brothers they were also doing them unto Jesus. The goats did not receive the Gospel messengers, the righteous sheep, and they were doomed for destruction.

I realize others may interpret this differently but this is my view of this sheep and goat story.
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Sudsy
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Re: Are We Saved By Our Acts Of Obedience?

Post by Sudsy »

GaryK wrote:Sudsy, do you think it's possible to love Jesus and at the same time consciously refuse to submit to his commandments? Jesus said "If you love me keep my commandments". Doesn't this parallel with the two encompassing commandments you keep mentioning?
I believe when Jesus said "If you love me keep my commandments", He was saying actions speak louder than words. All the praise and worship we might do is meaningless if our acts of loving Him through our deeds are not evident. There is a verse that says something like 'these people honor Me with their lips but their hearts are far from Me'.

Question - do you view all the commandments in the NT to be the ones requiring submitting to ?

Here is an Internet quote I haven't checked out for accuracy but it says this -
There are 1,050 commands in the New Testament for Christians to obey. Due to repetitions we can classify them under about 800 headings. They cover every phase of man's life in his relationship to God and his fellowmen, now and hereafter.


Have any of us submitted to all of these ? I think the obvious answer is 'no'. Are there any we "consciously refuse to submit to" ? Imo, 'yes'. I gave a few possible areas in previous posts regarding spiritual gift desiring and how Paul said to run a church meeting.

So, yes, I think it is very possible and is actually what occurs in our loving Jesus. We are imperfect in our love for Him and others. Sanctification and becoming more like Jesus is a life long pursuit and in some areas, if we new each other better, we could challenge if we are submitting or not.

Jesus love is a perfect love for us. God is love. Ours is imperfect for Him but as it grows we find more ways of expressing our love for Him.
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MaxPC
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Re: Are We Saved By Our Acts Of Obedience?

Post by MaxPC »

Sudsy wrote:
MaxPC wrote:The following made me think of this thread. It was one of the Scriptures read at Mass today.
[bible]Matthew 25, 31-46[/bible]
I think some view these acts that bring salvation whereas others view these as fruits of salvation.
Agreed. As a footnote, in Catholic World we view these as necessary fruits of accepting Christ as Savior and living out our discipleship. Our teaching on this is drawn from Matthew 3:9-11:
9 And do not presume to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father,’ for I tell you, God is able from these stones to raise up children for Abraham. 10 Even now the axe is laid to the root of the trees. Every tree therefore that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

11 “I baptize you with water for repentance, but he who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
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Max (Plain Catholic)
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Proverbs 18:2 A fool does not delight in understanding but only in revealing his own mind.
1 Corinthians 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is folly with God
Sudsy
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Re: Are We Saved By Our Acts Of Obedience?

Post by Sudsy »

silentreader wrote:
Sudsy wrote: If we really want to return to the customs of Jesus time, perhaps we should consider a Christian way of having slaves, wearing of robes and sandals, no cars, dirt roads only, etc, etc. I do think most of this kind of thing is addressed in Romans 14. Allow everyone to serve the Lord as they believe the Spirit leads them.[
Isn't that fairly extensive already? "Everyone did what was right in their own eyes"?[/quote]

This quote is from Judges 21:25 - "In those days there was no king in Israel. Everyone did what was right in his own eyes."

Comparing today, we have a King but especially in our culture, we don't like relinquishing control to anyone and trust no one. Personally I don't think God makes us into immediate robots upon conversion. There is a continuous growing that the NT speaks about that comes from spiritual disciplines. Does God try to force us into the same mold or does He fashion us into various forms to serve His purposes ? I think unity can be had without uniformity as we allow/submit to the Spirit's control. Churchianity often attempts to force a certain mold of Christian, imo.
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Sudsy
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Re: Are We Saved By Our Acts Of Obedience?

Post by Sudsy »

MaxPC wrote:
Sudsy wrote:
I think some view these acts that bring salvation whereas others view these as fruits of salvation.
Agreed. As a footnote, in Catholic World we view these as necessary fruits of accepting Christ as Savior and living out our discipleship. Our teaching on this is drawn from Matthew 3:9-11:
9 And do not presume to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father,’ for I tell you, God is able from these stones to raise up children for Abraham. 10 Even now the axe is laid to the root of the trees. Every tree therefore that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

11 “I baptize you with water for repentance, but he who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
What I underlined - is it necessary to do prison ministry then to be saved ? I think you mean fruits such as these are the fruit of a true believer, Yes ?
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Re: Are We Saved By Our Acts Of Obedience?

Post by silentreader »

Sudsy wrote:
silentreader wrote:
Sudsy wrote: If we really want to return to the customs of Jesus time, perhaps we should consider a Christian way of having slaves, wearing of robes and sandals, no cars, dirt roads only, etc, etc. I do think most of this kind of thing is addressed in Romans 14. Allow everyone to serve the Lord as they believe the Spirit leads them.[
Isn't that fairly extensive already? "Everyone did what was right in their own eyes"?
This quote is from Judges 21:25 - and 17:6"In those days there was no king in Israel. Everyone did what was right in his own eyes."

"There is nothing new under the sun."

Comparing today, we have a King but especially in our culture, we don't like relinquishing control to anyone and trust no one. Personally I don't think God makes us into immediate robots upon conversion. There is a continuous growing that the NT speaks about that comes from spiritual disciplines. Does God try to force us into the same mold or does He fashion us into various forms to serve His purposes ? I think unity can be had without uniformity as we allow/submit to the Spirit's control. Churchianity often attempts to force a certain mold of Christian, imo.[/quote]
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GaryK
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Re: Are We Saved By Our Acts Of Obedience?

Post by GaryK »

Sudsy wrote:
GaryK wrote:Sudsy, do you think it's possible to love Jesus and at the same time consciously refuse to submit to his commandments? Jesus said "If you love me keep my commandments". Doesn't this parallel with the two encompassing commandments you keep mentioning?
I believe when Jesus said "If you love me keep my commandments", He was saying actions speak louder than words. All the praise and worship we might do is meaningless if our acts of loving Him through our deeds are not evident. There is a verse that says something like 'these people honor Me with their lips but their hearts are far from Me'.

Question - do you view all the commandments in the NT to be the ones requiring submitting to ?

Here is an Internet quote I haven't checked out for accuracy but it says this -
There are 1,050 commands in the New Testament for Christians to obey. Due to repetitions we can classify them under about 800 headings. They cover every phase of man's life in his relationship to God and his fellowmen, now and hereafter.


Have any of us submitted to all of these ? I think the obvious answer is 'no'. Are there any we "consciously refuse to submit to" ? Imo, 'yes'. I gave a few possible areas in previous posts regarding spiritual gift desiring and how Paul said to run a church meeting.

So, yes, I think it is very possible and is actually what occurs in our loving Jesus. We are imperfect in our love for Him and others. Sanctification and becoming more like Jesus is a life long pursuit and in some areas, if we new each other better, we could challenge if we are submitting or not.

Jesus love is a perfect love for us. God is love. Ours is imperfect for Him but as it grows we find more ways of expressing our love for Him.
I don't think you are understanding my question. Let's say through the reading of Jesus' teaching in the Sermon on the Mount a believer becomes completely convinced that non-resistance is one of the rules of the Kingdom. They see this rule being modeled through Jesus' example and the example of many in the early church. But they consciously decide that they cannot and will not embrace this rule. Is it possible for them to love Jesus and take such a stance? Do you think Jesus would say that such a person loves him?
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