Are We Saved By Our Acts Of Obedience?

General Christian Theology

Are we justified before God by our acts of obedience?

 
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RZehr
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Re: Are We Saved By Our Acts Of Obedience?

Post by RZehr »

I agree with the idea that perfection in obeying is impossible for fallen man; that obedience requires deciding which ones are for us today; And which ones were intended to be taken literal and which were figurative.
So on the “grace” side of obedience (or disobedience?), or in ignorance, or failings, I believe perhaps there is some gray area that does not risk ones eternal salvation.
However on the other end of the spectrum we have Galatians 5:19-21 where there is what I believe to be a very clear list of things that will keep one out of heaven. There is not any ambiguity or grayness that I see here.

Galatians 5:19-21
Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
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Sudsy
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Re: Are We Saved By Our Acts Of Obedience?

Post by Sudsy »

GaryK wrote:
Sudsy wrote:I believe this does not mean they don't love Jesus and are obedient in many other areas. They don't love Him enough to obey in that specific area. They will miss out on the blessings of Kingdom life in that area.
I would really like to see some scriptural backing for this view.
There are many scriptures that one can give for this view but addressing the issue of whether love is a 'you do' or 'you don't' love Jesus understanding regard Revelation 2 when the message was sent to the church at Ephesus. They were complimented on what they were doing right, what their works of obedience were that were good, however they had 'left their first love'. Does that mean they left all their love for Christ ? Or does it mean their degree of love was not like it was when they were first converted. One can get all caught up with following the 'letter of the law' in being obedient and not have much, if any, love relationship with God. Those Jesus came to save that was of first importance when they came a believer (their unsaved family and friends) are no longer much of a concern. This tells me that love is not a fixed issue. It can grow or it can fade.

So simply saying we don't love Jesus at all if we are refusing to obey in some area of obedience seems to imply that love is not variable. We know it isn't a fixed issue in real life. Our love if nurtured well for our wife will grow and grow. However, if neglected to be nurtured it can fall away and need to be revived. The blessings of a good life together will be missed if this love is not revived.

Here is a list of those 1,050 NT commands. If these are rules of the Kingdom that keep us in the Kingdom, is there any here that we are excusing ourselves from in some way or other ? Or are there any we just are currently disobeying ?

https://www.cai.org/bible-studies/1050- ... t-commands
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Sudsy
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Re: Are We Saved By Our Acts Of Obedience?

Post by Sudsy »

GaryK wrote: I think I recall in other threads you being quite strong on the Kingdom rule that all Christians should be involved in spreading the gospel. I question why you think this if it's every one to his own convictions. Yet when others promote things like feet washing being a Kingdom rule you push back and start talking about a works based salvation. Why the difference?

I don't see any of these as a 'Kingdom rule'. I don't believe there is a list called 'Kingdom rules' anywhere defined as such in scripture. And I don't mind 'push back' as that is a good way of getting to know more about why others believe what they do. However, I don't want it to be a contentious exercise either.

I think I've made myself pretty clear on where I stand on this issue of refusing to obey Kingdom rules and I've tried to back up what I've been saying with scriptures. I think we have reached a point where there's not much use in us continuing this discussion so I will bow out.

OK and I appreciate the discussion. According to the poll there are varying opinions by the readers here. I hope we can agree to disagree and keep pursuing obedience for why we think it important.
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Sudsy
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Re: Are We Saved By Our Acts Of Obedience?

Post by Sudsy »

RZehr wrote:I agree with the idea that perfection in obeying is impossible for fallen man; that obedience requires deciding which ones are for us today; And which ones were intended to be taken literal and which were figurative.
So on the “grace” side of obedience (or disobedience?), or in ignorance, or failings, I believe perhaps there is some gray area that does not risk ones eternal salvation.
However on the other end of the spectrum we have Galatians 5:19-21 where there is what I believe to be a very clear list of things that will keep one out of heaven. There is not any ambiguity or grayness that I see here.

Galatians 5:19-21
Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
This is an interesting list when you look at these areas in more modern terms like one paraphrase-

committing sexual sin, being morally bad, doing all kinds of shameful things, worshiping false gods, taking part in witchcraft, hating people, causing trouble, being jealous, angry or selfish, causing people to argue and divide into separate groups, being filled with envy, getting drunk, having wild parties, and doing other things like this.

I think the referring to these areas don't mean a slip up once in awhile when we give way to the flesh but rather a habit of being this way. Some of these may seem obvious that a Christian would avoid doing but others having to do with arguing and dividing into groups are thought provoking. Any comment ?
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GaryK
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Re: Are We Saved By Our Acts Of Obedience?

Post by GaryK »

Sudsy wrote:
GaryK wrote:
Sudsy wrote:I believe this does not mean they don't love Jesus and are obedient in many other areas. They don't love Him enough to obey in that specific area. They will miss out on the blessings of Kingdom life in that area.
I would really like to see some scriptural backing for this view.
There are many scriptures that one can give for this view but addressing the issue of whether love is a 'you do' or 'you don't' love Jesus understanding regard Revelation 2 when the message was sent to the church at Ephesus. They were complimented on what they were doing right, what their works of obedience were that were good, however they had 'left their first love'. Does that mean they left all their love for Christ ? Or does it mean their degree of love was not like it was when they were first converted. One can get all caught up with following the 'letter of the law' in being obedient and not have much, if any, love relationship with God. Those Jesus came to save that was of first importance when they came a believer (their unsaved family and friends) are no longer much of a concern. This tells me that love is not a fixed issue. It can grow or it can fade.

So simply saying we don't love Jesus at all if we are refusing to obey in some area of obedience seems to imply that love is not variable. We know it isn't a fixed issue in real life. Our love if nurtured well for our wife will grow and grow. However, if neglected to be nurtured it can fall away and need to be revived. The blessings of a good life together will be missed if this love is not revived.

Here is a list of those 1,050 NT commands. If these are rules of the Kingdom that keep us in the Kingdom, is there any here that we are excusing ourselves from in some way or other ? Or are there any we just are currently disobeying ?

https://www.cai.org/bible-studies/1050- ... t-commands
I will add this yet. IMO the message to the church at Ephesus rather disproves your view. They were in danger of having their candlestick removed because of one area where they were going wrong, in spite of all that they were doing right. I suppose you will have a way of explaining why having ones candlestick removed doesn't put them outside the Kingdom.
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Sudsy
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Re: Are We Saved By Our Acts Of Obedience?

Post by Sudsy »

GaryK wrote: I will add this yet. IMO the message to the church at Ephesus rather disproves your view. They were in danger of having their candlestick removed because of one area where they were going wrong, in spite of all that they were doing right. I suppose you will have a way of explaining why having ones candlestick removed doesn't put them outside the Kingdom.
:) Yes I do but I'll leave it with this comment - imo, there are likely candlesticks already removed from many churches including Anabaptist ones.
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VendorRay
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Re: Are We Saved By Our Acts Of Obedience?

Post by VendorRay »

In my humble opinion the thread is really going around in circles.
When the Jews asked Peter in Acts 2 what they needed to do to be saved, what did he answer?
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Now, isn't repenting and being baptized both works?
So often people get confused when it Paul writes about the works of the law. He isn't writing about obedience, he is writing about the law that God gave to Moses at Mt. Sinai.
When we repent and become baptized, that means we are now born again. We are no longer people of the old flesh, but a new creature seeking God's ways. We will still make mistakes and we can still fall away, but if we are truly born again, we will also be living a new life.
Don't talk to me about works without faith, of faith without works, or works with faith, or faith with works. Just show me faith that works.
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Heirbyadoption
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Re: Are We Saved By Our Acts Of Obedience?

Post by Heirbyadoption »

VendorRay approaches one of the issues that was the impetus for this thread. So often, when we speak or ask about someone being saved, we are actually referring to them being justified/forgiven. So...since the Scriptures repeatedly speak of being justified by faith, does that mean when we speak of "faith" in this context it actually means we are justified not only by our exercise of believe and complete trust (aka faith), but ALSO by the resultant/subsequent works of obedience that inevitably stem from that voluntary belief/trust?

I understand that we are called to obedience as we walk in our new life, but is faith, in the context of being justified and made a child of God, actually faith plus it's resultant works? Is it on the basis of my belief and complete trust in Jesus Christ as the Son of God and my only hope that God will initially justify me, or on the basis of my belief, complete trust, AND some subsequent act(s) of obedience that stem from my belief and trust?
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Hats Off
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Re: Are We Saved By Our Acts Of Obedience?

Post by Hats Off »

This something I wrote for our church paper over twenty years ago:

“FAITH" IS AN ACTION WORD
My dictionary defines the word faith as "belief founded on authority; belief in religious doctrines, especially such as affect character and conduct." (added emphasis mine). Pietist influences have diminished this aspect of faith, emphasizing rather scriptures such as John 3:7 “Ye must be born again."; John 3:16; Mark 16:16 and Romans 10:13 "whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."

In his book "A Third Way", Paul Lederach writes "Today there is a tendency to reduce salvation to a set of beliefs, which when accepted intellectually is said to lead to salvation. Luther constantly reiterated that salvation is by faith and not of works. Unfortunately, faith was reduced to belief, works to legalism. The result of this has been to take salvation away from life and make it an intellectual exercise. Some preachers say something to this effect "If you believe this, and this, and this, then on authority of God's word, I can say you are saved."

However, as can be seen from studies in the Gospel of Luke, for faith to really be faith, belief must be followed by action. ln Luke 6:46, Jesus says "And why do ye call me Lord, Lord, and do not the things I say?" The parable of the two houses, one built on rock, the other on sand, further illustrate the need for doing. In Luke 7:37-50, the woman with the alabaster box of ointment in Simon's house was told “thy faith hath saved thee." She showed her faith and repentance by her actions in serving Jesus. In chapter 8, the woman having an issue of blood twelve years, touched the hem of Jesus' garment and was healed immediately. Her faith, put into action was rewarded; Jesus said to her "thy faith has made thee whole." In chapter 9, Jesus said "If any man will come after me, let him deny himself … and follow me." The lawyer in chapter 10 tempted Jesus saying "Master, what shall l do to inherit eternal life?" He responded with the parable of the good Samaritan, concluding with the words, "Go and do thou likewise."

When John was teaching the people (Luke 3:7-14) the question came up three times, "What shall we do then?" At Pentecost, the people asked Peter and the rest of the apostles "Men and brethren, what shall we do?" Again in 2 Peter 3:11, Peter writes "what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness." In these instances, it was obvious to all that some form of action was going to be required. Paul goes on in Romans 10 to indicate that action is required when he says, "How shall they call on him in who they have not believed, and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard and how shall they hear without a preacher, and how shall they preach except they be sent?" Both old and new testament abound with exhortations to action with words like obey, strive, run, work, follow.

Our testimony in words, be it ever so correct, has little meaning unless the truth of the words is evident in our lives. Unless our faith can be seen in our actions, it is not faith; "every tree is known by his own fruit." (Luke 6:44) If we continue conformed to this world, resisting the teachings of Jesus and the desires of the church, our actions may speak so loudly that our words go unheard.
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cmbl
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Re: Are We Saved By Our Acts Of Obedience?

Post by cmbl »

Heirbyadoption wrote:VendorRay approaches one of the issues that was the impetus for this thread. So often, when we speak or ask about someone being saved, we are actually referring to them being justified/forgiven.
We really need to stop doing this.
So...since the Scriptures repeatedly speak of being justified by faith, does that mean when we speak of "faith" in this context it actually means we are justified not only by our exercise of believe and complete trust (aka faith), but ALSO by the resultant/subsequent works of obedience that inevitably stem from that voluntary belief/trust?
As far as I am aware, the Scriptures that speak of being justified by faith speak of faith in contrast to the works of the Jewish Law (as VendorRay said). There is a scripture that speaks of being justified by works, using the example of Abraham. Abraham's works align with your phrase "subsequent works of obedience."
I understand that we are called to obedience as we walk in our new life, but is faith, in the context of being justified and made a child of God, actually faith plus it's resultant works?
The NT uses both "faith" and "works" in the context of justification. Since the Scriptures explicitly call for both, we don't have to define (or redefine) faith to mean faith plus its "resultant" works.
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"Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous."
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