Are We Saved By Our Acts Of Obedience?

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Are we justified before God by our acts of obedience?

 
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Sudsy
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Re: Are We Saved By Our Acts Of Obedience?

Post by Sudsy »

Josh wrote:I think obedience is required.

If I think I am a believer, yet I go and shoot someone in cold blood every day, I don’t see how any serious person can think I am “saved” or “following Jesus” or in his kingdom.
I agree, saving faith involves acts of obedience because our changed heart causes us to take obedience seriously. What we profess we are does not make it so. It is who we have now living within us and the Holy Spirit is not reflected in us if we 'go and shoot someone in cold blood every day'. This contradicts being a new creation.
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Hats Off
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Re: Are We Saved By Our Acts Of Obedience?

Post by Hats Off »

Sudsy wrote: If salvation depends on our perfect obedience then none of us would be saved ? And if not perfect obedience, where is the line we cross and are kicked out of the Kingdom ? This is where I have a problem with the idea of being 'obedient enough' to remain in the Kingdom or stay saved. There is no such thing as being "obedient enough."

If it is our willingness to submit to Kingdom rules, we first need them spelled out clearly, do we not ? And we differ even within Anabaptism about what is and what is not being obedient in various areas. We can think a woman not wearing a head covering is being wilfully disobedient in one breath and in the next say however, they still remain saved. (This is something that I also don't get.

So, I'm puzzled at this 'remaining in the Kingdom' criteria and if no one knows when they cross that line, having any assurance of their salvation would be impossible.
I don't think anyone mentioned perfect obedience. How much disobedience will be tolerated? Only the disobedience that is repented of, don't you think? How can I willingly be disobedient and yet expect to be called a child of God? Remember also the verses that suggest that the crown is not obtained at the beginning or in the middle but only at the end. He that remains faithful... This is where old order people would talk of a "lively or a living hope" or a "lebendiche hoffnung." And yet we say that this hope is not like saying "I hope to win the lottery" if i have never bought a ticket. This hope or hoffnung is something that we can reasonably expect to attain.
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PeterG
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Re: Are We Saved By Our Acts Of Obedience?

Post by PeterG »

It's important to distinguish correlation from causation. Obedience is inextricably correlated with salvation, but it does not cause our salvation.
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Sudsy
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Re: Are We Saved By Our Acts Of Obedience?

Post by Sudsy »

cmbl wrote:I have never heard someone who openly says obedience is required for salvation ask how much is required. I have only heard that question asked by people who say obedience is not required for salvation. This fundamental disconnect baffles and fascinates me.

What I was referring to was the statement that we must obey to 'remain in His Kingdom' by following the rules.
Sudsy wrote:If it is our willingness to submit to Kingdom rules, we first need them spelled out clearly, do we not ?
I don't think so. We can start to obey with a very limited understanding.

Agree we can begin to obey with what we currently know to obey. But again, with regard to when God might disown us or kick us out of His Kingdom when might this occur ? Is it at any point we resist obeying in some area ? Do we treat our children this way ? If you don't obey 100%, then you can't live here. I suppose some do. I doubt God does.

I enjoy pondering the Johannine phrases "keep my commandments" and "keep his commandments". How does John use these phrases? Does he admit the question "how much is required?" Does he think it's possible to keep Jesus' commandments?
Does John think anyone can keep them perfectly ? Does anyone here think they keep all of the commandments as Jesus intended them to be kept so they can 'remain in His Kingdom' ?

I think it could be that Christians from a more 'rules' Christian practise may view God differently in that obedience is more from a 'have to ' than a 'want to' view.

Imo, the 'have to' perspective sees God as our Father demanding us to obey or He will punish us even to the point of disowning us at some point of disobedience. Others see God more from a loving Father who gives us commands to follow because He wants the best of life for us and living apart from these commandments/guidelines there are adverse consequences that He doesn't want us to experience. Scripture says NOTHING can separate us from this love. Not even our failures and disobedient ways. Our love for Him with all our hearts causes us to 'want to' obey as we know He is asking us to obey, not 'because I said to or I will punish you' but rather 'because you are my child and I want you to experience abundant life'.
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Sudsy
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Re: Are We Saved By Our Acts Of Obedience?

Post by Sudsy »

Hats Off wrote: I don't think anyone mentioned perfect obedience. How much disobedience will be tolerated? Only the disobedience that is repented of, don't you think? How can I willingly be disobedient and yet expect to be called a child of God? Remember also the verses that suggest that the crown is not obtained at the beginning or in the middle but only at the end. He that remains faithful... This is where old order people would talk of a "lively or a living hope" or a "lebendiche hoffnung." And yet we say that this hope is not like saying "I hope to win the lottery" if i have never bought a ticket. This hope or hoffnung is something that we can reasonably expect to attain.
In answer to the underlined question - how do we treat our own children who in some area(s) are willingly disobedient ? Are they still our child ? Do we disown them because they just don't submit and obey in some area even though they obey in most ? What if they, throughout their life just won't repent and turn and obey in that area ? Do we disown them for their lack of repenting at some point ? I see our loving Father far more tolerant than perhaps others here might. I know what He put up with in my disobedience and yet when I came to my senses He came to welcome me home. In the Revelation, Jesus stands at the door waiting for a believer to open the door and restore fellowship. He leaves the ninety and nine to locate one lost sheep. I don't think God gives up on us as easy as some Christians believe. God is love. His commandments are not burdensome. He wants the best for us.

When it comes to being faithful to the end, to me, is never turning my back on a belief as Jesus is Lord and what He did to save me. Our hope is, as you indicated, not wishful thinking on some religious act we did at some point in time but it is rather a 'confident expectation' that He has and will save us despite our failings. Our spirit bears witness with His Spirit that we are His child regardless of what other professing believers might think.
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Wade
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Re: Are We Saved By Our Acts Of Obedience?

Post by Wade »

I have heard this often that we have eternal security or obedience isn't important because God loves us. It makes no sense to me, is it not confusing predestination, love, free will and faith while throwing, obedience, righteousness, justice, responsibility, and consequences out. Love is all those things, it doesn't override and omit parts of itself.
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Valerie
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Re: Are We Saved By Our Acts Of Obedience?

Post by Valerie »

Wade wrote:I have heard this often that we have eternal security or obedience isn't important because God loves us. It makes no sense to me, is it not confusing predestination, love, free will and faith while throwing, obedience, righteousness, justice, responsibility, and consequences out. Love is all those things, it doesn't override and omit parts of itself.
I must say, having given my heart to the Lord in 1973 (and not always faithful to Him) and coming through what people consider Pentecostal/Charismatic/Evangelical churches- I have never heard it preached from the pulpit, from Bible study leaders I've been under, or from fellow Christians, that obedience isn't important- I have always heard that obedience is INDEED important- but that it not our initial entrance into the Kingdom-for by faith we are saved, and that not of ourselves- but I would say the first step of obedience would be according to for example, Mark 16:16: He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. It's odd to me to hear people have heard that obedience wasn't taught as I've always been taught it is important, and have also believed it as I read God's Word, which was always strongly encouraged for us to do in whatever Church setting we attended.
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Hats Off
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Re: Are We Saved By Our Acts Of Obedience?

Post by Hats Off »

Sudsy wrote:
Hats Off wrote: I don't think anyone mentioned perfect obedience. How much disobedience will be tolerated? Only the disobedience that is repented of, don't you think? How can I willingly be disobedient and yet expect to be called a child of God? Remember also the verses that suggest that the crown is not obtained at the beginning or in the middle but only at the end. He that remains faithful... This is where old order people would talk of a "lively or a living hope" or a "lebendiche hoffnung." And yet we say that this hope is not like saying "I hope to win the lottery" if i have never bought a ticket. This hope or hoffnung is something that we can reasonably expect to attain.
In answer to the underlined question - how do we treat our own children who in some area(s) are willingly disobedient ? Are they still our child ? Do we disown them because they just don't submit and obey in some area even though they obey in most ? What if they, throughout their life just won't repent and turn and obey in that area ? Do we disown them for their lack of repenting at some point ? I see our loving Father far more tolerant than perhaps others here might. I know what He put up with in my disobedience and yet when I came to my senses He came to welcome me home. In the Revelation, Jesus stands at the door waiting for a believer to open the door and restore fellowship. He leaves the ninety and nine to locate one lost sheep. I don't think God gives up on us as easy as some Christians believe. God is love. His commandments are not burdensome. He wants the best for us.

When it comes to being faithful to the end, to me, is never turning my back on a belief as Jesus is Lord and what He did to save me. Our hope is, as you indicated, not wishful thinking on some religious act we did at some point in time but it is rather a 'confident expectation' that He has and will save us despite our failings. Our spirit bears witness with His Spirit that we are His child regardless of what other professing believers might think.
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Hats Off
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Re: Are We Saved By Our Acts Of Obedience?

Post by Hats Off »

I am not referring to my children or grandchildren. I am talking about a relationship with God.

i did not say that God won't forgive wilful disobedience; I said disobedience that is not repented of. If it was just a matter of Jesus dying on the cross for "all" people and nothing more was required then we would be free to live as we please, whatever that happens to mean. I believe in the unfailing love of God, but I also believe in the justice and judgement of God.

And I can say a hearty "Amen" to Wade's thoughts!
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Sudsy
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Re: Are We Saved By Our Acts Of Obedience?

Post by Sudsy »

Wade wrote:I have heard this often that we have eternal security or obedience isn't important because God loves us. It makes no sense to me, is it not confusing predestination, love, free will and faith while throwing, obedience, righteousness, justice, responsibility, and consequences out. Love is all those things, it doesn't override and omit parts of itself.
I think perhaps our communications are not clear as this is not what I was trying to say. Believing in eternal security, in my experience (and I have been in two OSAS churches) has never suggested 'obedience isn't important because God loves is.' As Valerie also has experienced being in churches with this belief. I have never heard a sermon that threw 'obedience, righteousness, justice, responsibility, and consequences out' because God loves us. Some of the most godly living acquaintances I have are eternal security believers.

I think where some of this may come from is there are OSAS churches that do have members that, by their life style, have not either been born again or they 'accepted Christ' on their terms. Such as 'I will believe in you but not make you Lord of my life'. And some preaching from the pulpit has used the love of God to not offend some of these members, who may be the big financial contributors. I'm not saying this does not occur in some places.

What I don't agree with and have tried to get some clearer defining on is that it appears that some believe there is a level of obedience one must maintain to 'stay saved' (remain in the Kingdom). Some of us here that are not eternal security believers see God not 'disowning us' as His child based on some point of unrepented disobedience. Believing in free will we believe it possible to quit believing in Jesus and therefore not qualify then to be saved. We have abandoned our faith in Jesus as our Saviour. We also believe disobedience as a Christian has consequences not only here and now but in our future performance review before the King.

Does that explanation help whether you agree or not ?
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