Are We Saved By Our Acts Of Obedience?

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Are we justified before God by our acts of obedience?

 
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silentreader
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Re: Are We Saved By Our Acts Of Obedience?

Post by silentreader »

Sudsy wrote:
Wade wrote:I have heard this often that we have eternal security or obedience isn't important because God loves us. It makes no sense to me, is it not confusing predestination, love, free will and faith while throwing, obedience, righteousness, justice, responsibility, and consequences out. Love is all those things, it doesn't override and omit parts of itself.
I think perhaps our communications are not clear as this is not what I was trying to say. Believing in eternal security, in my experience (and I have been in two OSAS churches) has never suggested 'obedience isn't important because God loves is.' As Valerie also has experienced being in churches with this belief. I have never heard a sermon that threw 'obedience, righteousness, justice, responsibility, and consequences out' because God loves us. Some of the most godly living acquaintances I have are eternal security believers.

I think where some of this may come from is there are OSAS churches that do have members that, by their life style, have not either been born again or they 'accepted Christ' on their terms. Such as 'I will believe in you but not make you Lord of my life'. And some preaching from the pulpit has used the love of God to not offend some of these members, who may be the big financial contributors. I'm not saying this does not occur in some places.

What I don't agree with and have tried to get some clearer defining on is that it appears that some believe there is a level of obedience one must maintain to 'stay saved' (remain in the Kingdom). Some of us here that are not eternal security believers see God not 'disowning us' as His child based on some point of unrepented disobedience. Believing in free will we believe it possible to quit believing in Jesus and therefore not qualify then to be saved. We have abandoned our faith in Jesus as our Saviour. We also believe disobedience as a Christian has consequences not only here and now but in our future performance review before the King.

Does that explanation help whether you agree or not ?
What do you think of this? (From the ISBE)
LIBERTY
lib'-er-ti (deror, rachabh; eleutheria):
The opposite of servitude or bondage, hence, applicable to captives or slaves set free from oppression (thus deror, Leviticus 25:10; Isaiah 61:1, etc.). Morally, the power which enslaves is sin (John 8:34), and liberty consists, not simply in external freedom, or in possession of the formal power of choice, but in deliverance from the darkening of the mind, the tyranny of sinful lusts and the enthrallment of the will, induced by a morally corrupt state. In a positive respect, it consists in the possession of holiness, with the will and ability to do what is right and good. Such liberty is possible only in a renewed condition of soul, and cannot exist apart from godliness. Even under the Old Testament godly men could boast of a measure of such liberty (Psalms 119:45, rachabh, "room," "breadth"), but it is the gospel of Christ which bestows it in its fullness, in giving a full and clear knowledge of God, discovering the way of forgiveness, supplying the highest motives to holiness and giving the Holy Spirit to destroy the power of sin and to quicken to righteousness. In implanting a new life in the soul, the gospel lifts the believer out of the sphere of external law, and gives him a sense of freedom in his new filial relation to God. Hence, the New Testament expressions about "the glorious liberty" of God's children (Romans 8:21 the King James Version; compare Galatians 2:4; 5:13, etc.), about liberty as resulting from the possession of the Spirit (2 Corinthians 3:17), about "the perfect law of liberty" (James 1:25). The instrument through which this liberty is imparted is "the truth" (John 8:32). Christians are earnestly warned not to presume upon, or abuse their liberty in Christ (Galatians 5:13; 1 Peter 2:16).
I wonder if some professing Christians confuse liberty and license?
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Wade
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Re: Are We Saved By Our Acts Of Obedience?

Post by Wade »

Sudsy wrote:
Wade wrote:I have heard this often that we have eternal security or obedience isn't important because God loves us. It makes no sense to me, is it not confusing predestination, love, free will and faith while throwing, obedience, righteousness, justice, responsibility, and consequences out. Love is all those things, it doesn't override and omit parts of itself.
I think perhaps our communications are not clear as this is not what I was trying to say. Believing in eternal security, in my experience (and I have been in two OSAS churches) has never suggested 'obedience isn't important because God loves is.' As Valerie also has experienced being in churches with this belief. I have never heard a sermon that threw 'obedience, righteousness, justice, responsibility, and consequences out' because God loves us. Some of the most godly living acquaintances I have are eternal security believers.

I think where some of this may come from is there are OSAS churches that do have members that, by their life style, have not either been born again or they 'accepted Christ' on their terms. Such as 'I will believe in you but not make you Lord of my life'. And some preaching from the pulpit has used the love of God to not offend some of these members, who may be the big financial contributors. I'm not saying this does not occur in some places.

What I don't agree with and have tried to get some clearer defining on is that it appears that some believe there is a level of obedience one must maintain to 'stay saved' (remain in the Kingdom). Some of us here that are not eternal security believers see God not 'disowning us' as His child based on some point of unrepented disobedience. Believing in free will we believe it possible to quit believing in Jesus and therefore not qualify then to be saved. We have abandoned our faith in Jesus as our Saviour. We also believe disobedience as a Christian has consequences not only here and now but in our future performance review before the King.

Does that explanation help whether you agree or not ?
I think where I am troubled is how these different views can have an extremely huge impact on our view of scripture. No matter how obedient or disobedient, or if one claims either is; often OSAS believing people seem quick to point out what isn't in scripture, rather than what is. Or how the law is done and we are free...
Why is that a born again person can take the scripture and explain why they don't have to do something?
For some of us even through many stumbles we rather want to know what scripture does say. We are so compeled by the love, mercy, and forgiveness of God that being in His will, communing with Him is a place we always want to be. In Isaiah 53:10 we read about it being God's pleasure that he bruised Christ to take away our sin. To meditate on things like that in scripture are so incredibly humbling since we know that our obedience cannot achieve that. And since we can even see a glimpse of His love while not being able to search out all His understandings, we don't need to reason away literal obedience. We still want to get the point too and are not obedient because we are concerned about our salvation or a need to maintain it but rather are grateful and enjoy the privilege of living unto Him. If we get the point or principle taught, then won't someone after God's heart want to know how He defines it and how He may think application should be?! Often I see Christians defining a principle how the world defines it, rather than by looking to the scripture in how God defines it. When we try to define a principle by scripture we end up taking things more literally. We don't obey these things so we can be saved or have to but rather because we are saved and we are looking for things the scripture does say and want to obey them, even though we are a work in progress.
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Sudsy
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Re: Are We Saved By Our Acts Of Obedience?

Post by Sudsy »

silentreader wrote: What do you think of this? (From the ISBE)
LIBERTY
lib'-er-ti (deror, rachabh; eleutheria):
The opposite of servitude or bondage, hence, applicable to captives or slaves set free from oppression (thus deror, Leviticus 25:10; Isaiah 61:1, etc.). Morally, the power which enslaves is sin (John 8:34), and liberty consists, not simply in external freedom, or in possession of the formal power of choice, but in deliverance from the darkening of the mind, the tyranny of sinful lusts and the enthrallment of the will, induced by a morally corrupt state. In a positive respect, it consists in the possession of holiness, with the will and ability to do what is right and good. Such liberty is possible only in a renewed condition of soul, and cannot exist apart from godliness. Even under the Old Testament godly men could boast of a measure of such liberty (Psalms 119:45, rachabh, "room," "breadth"), but it is the gospel of Christ which bestows it in its fullness, in giving a full and clear knowledge of God, discovering the way of forgiveness, supplying the highest motives to holiness and giving the Holy Spirit to destroy the power of sin and to quicken to righteousness. In implanting a new life in the soul, the gospel lifts the believer out of the sphere of external law, and gives him a sense of freedom in his new filial relation to God. Hence, the New Testament expressions about "the glorious liberty" of God's children (Romans 8:21 the King James Version; compare Galatians 2:4; 5:13, etc.), about liberty as resulting from the possession of the Spirit (2 Corinthians 3:17), about "the perfect law of liberty" (James 1:25). The instrument through which this liberty is imparted is "the truth" (John 8:32). Christians are earnestly warned not to presume upon, or abuse their liberty in Christ (Galatians 5:13; 1 Peter 2:16).
I think this is explained very well. Thankyou.

I wonder if some professing Christians confuse liberty and license?

Yes, I think some do. Paul asks the question in Romans 6:1-4 "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
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silentreader
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Re: Are We Saved By Our Acts Of Obedience?

Post by silentreader »

Wade wrote:
Sudsy wrote:
Wade wrote:I have heard this often that we have eternal security or obedience isn't important because God loves us. It makes no sense to me, is it not confusing predestination, love, free will and faith while throwing, obedience, righteousness, justice, responsibility, and consequences out. Love is all those things, it doesn't override and omit parts of itself.
I think perhaps our communications are not clear as this is not what I was trying to say. Believing in eternal security, in my experience (and I have been in two OSAS churches) has never suggested 'obedience isn't important because God loves is.' As Valerie also has experienced being in churches with this belief. I have never heard a sermon that threw 'obedience, righteousness, justice, responsibility, and consequences out' because God loves us. Some of the most godly living acquaintances I have are eternal security believers.

I think where some of this may come from is there are OSAS churches that do have members that, by their life style, have not either been born again or they 'accepted Christ' on their terms. Such as 'I will believe in you but not make you Lord of my life'. And some preaching from the pulpit has used the love of God to not offend some of these members, who may be the big financial contributors. I'm not saying this does not occur in some places.

What I don't agree with and have tried to get some clearer defining on is that it appears that some believe there is a level of obedience one must maintain to 'stay saved' (remain in the Kingdom). Some of us here that are not eternal security believers see God not 'disowning us' as His child based on some point of unrepented disobedience. Believing in free will we believe it possible to quit believing in Jesus and therefore not qualify then to be saved. We have abandoned our faith in Jesus as our Saviour. We also believe disobedience as a Christian has consequences not only here and now but in our future performance review before the King.

Does that explanation help whether you agree or not ?
I think where I am troubled is how these different views can have an extremely huge impact on our view of scripture. No matter how obedient or disobedient, or if one claims either is; often OSAS believing people seem quick to point out what isn't in scripture, rather than what is. Or how the law is done and we are free...
Why is that a born again person can take the scripture and explain why they don't have to do something?
For some of us even through many stumbles we rather want to know what scripture does say. We are so compeled by the love, mercy, and forgiveness of God that being in His will, communing with Him is a place we always want to be. In Isaiah 53:10 we read about it being God's pleasure that he bruised Christ to take away our sin. To meditate on things like that in scripture are so incredibly humbling since we know that our obedience cannot achieve that. And since we can even see a glimpse of His love while not being able to search out all His understandings, we don't need to reason away literal obedience. We still want to get the point too and are not obedient because we are concerned about our salvation or a need to maintain it but rather are grateful and enjoy the privilege of living unto Him. If we get the point or principle taught, then won't someone after God's heart want to know how He defines it and how He may think application should be?! Often I see Christians defining a principle how the world defines it, rather than by looking to the scripture in how God defines it. When we try to define a principle by scripture we end up taking things more literally. We don't obey these things so we can be saved or have to but rather because we are saved and we are looking for things the scripture does say and want to obey them, even though we are a work in progress.
How about this?
Obedience to Christ proves we love Him, and in return He shows Himself to us. You say, “There are so many commandments, how can I obey? How can I remember them all, and how can I be sure I am obeying?” In faith and love rest, wait and look. Then as His teaching touches your life, conform to it. There are some teachings of the Lord Jesus Christ that you would never get into because they would not touch you. They would not impinge on you in your present state. But as soon as they do touch you, then you automatically, sweetly and quietly obey.
~A. W. Tozer in “Rut, Rot or Revival”
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Sudsy
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Re: Are We Saved By Our Acts Of Obedience?

Post by Sudsy »

Wade wrote:
I think where I am troubled is how these different views can have an extremely huge impact on our view of scripture. No matter how obedient or disobedient, or if one claims either is; often OSAS believing people seem quick to point out what isn't in scripture, rather than what is. Or how the law is done and we are free...

My experience with OSAS believers can provide the scriptures they use that convinces them we are eternally secure if we are born again. Some OSAS believers here on this forum could probably provide a list quite quickly just as those from a free choice view can give scriptures that say we can lose our salvation according to certain verses. I was raised with a view that my salvation was so insecure that I better not be caught doing this or that or having any unrepentant sin in my life or not obeying in some area and I lived in fear that I would miss the rapture. Instead of a respect for God as a loving Father, I feared He might disown me for one of my mistakes. I was set free to now not live in this kind of fear.


Why is that a born again person can take the scripture and explain why they don't have to do something?

Because in some cases Jesus was addressing a specific person and what He said doesn't apply to us all. And there is timing and culture, etc. Take for instance, foot washing. Was this a once a year practise to be held in a church service with other Christians who already had clean feet ? This practise in Jesus day was whenever you entered someone's home. So, are we all disobedient if we do it once a year or in some other way today that is still a humble act of service ?

For some of us even through many stumbles we rather want to know what scripture does say. We are so compeled by the love, mercy, and forgiveness of God that being in His will, communing with Him is a place we always want to be. In Isaiah 53:10 we read about it being God's pleasure that he bruised Christ to take away our sin. To meditate on things like that in scripture are so incredibly humbling since we know that our obedience cannot achieve that. And since we can even see a glimpse of His love while not being able to search out all His understandings, we don't need to reason away literal obedience. We still want to get the point too and are not obedient because we are concerned about our salvation or a need to maintain it but rather are grateful and enjoy the privilege of living unto Him. If we get the point or principle taught, then won't someone after God's heart want to know how He defines it and how He may think application should be?! Often I see Christians defining a principle how the world defines it, rather than by looking to the scripture in how God defines it. When we try to define a principle by scripture we end up taking things more literally. We don't obey these things so we can be saved or have to but rather because we are saved and we are looking for things the scripture does say and want to obey them, even though we are a work in progress.

Amen. We love God and that should be the driver of our obedience. We love Him as He first loved us in all our brokenness. I might have some things I do in my being a servant of the Master that you don't do exactly the same. And vice-versa. God accepts that if we do these things unto Him.

I was thinking today on my walk of the verse that says Jesus learned obedience. And yet another versus says He never sinned so He was never disobedient. So how did He learn obedience ? The text says He learned it through sufferings. The living Bible puts it this way - "And even though Jesus was God’s Son, he had to learn from experience what it was like to obey when obeying meant suffering. It was after he had proved himself perfect in this experience that Jesus became the Giver of eternal salvation to all those who obey him. - Hebrews 5:8-9
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GaryK
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Re: Are We Saved By Our Acts Of Obedience?

Post by GaryK »

Sudsy wrote: Because in some cases Jesus was addressing a specific person and what He said doesn't apply to us all. And there is timing and culture, etc. Take for instance, foot washing. Was this a once a year practise to be held in a church service with other Christians who already had clean feet ? This practise in Jesus day was whenever you entered someone's home. So, are we all disobedient if we do it once a year or in some other way today that is still a humble act of service ?
Have you considered when in the course of the evening Jesus washed their feet? It wasn't when they entered the house but after supper. I don't think Jesus was doing the cultural practice of that day.
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Re: Are We Saved By Our Acts Of Obedience?

Post by GaryK »

Sudsy wrote: Amen. We love God and that should be the driver of our obedience.
I agree completely. But isn't it possible for the driver of an emphasis on obedience to be ones love for God? Obedience is not a scary word.
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Sudsy
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Re: Are We Saved By Our Acts Of Obedience?

Post by Sudsy »

GaryK wrote:
Sudsy wrote: Because in some cases Jesus was addressing a specific person and what He said doesn't apply to us all. And there is timing and culture, etc. Take for instance, foot washing. Was this a once a year practise to be held in a church service with other Christians who already had clean feet ? This practise in Jesus day was whenever you entered someone's home. So, are we all disobedient if we do it once a year or in some other way today that is still a humble act of service ?
Have you considered when in the course of the evening Jesus washed their feet? It wasn't when they entered the house but after supper. I don't think Jesus was doing the cultural practice of that day.
That is true but Jesus was using a common practise of that day to make a point. The common, every day foot washing was not to wash the feet of someone on the same level of society as yourself, a peer level. Servants and women did this role. Paul speaks of widows doing that to the saints as a good qualifying act. Jesus used this common practise of that day to show His disciples that this was not a Kingdom way to treat each other. We are to humbly serve each other. There is to be no such thing as being 'greater' than another in God's Kingdom.

But if we are to be literally obedient as the practise is explained, then should it not be done on the night of the Passover day after a supper and perhaps men only ? In our ways of obeying some take things more literal than others and so do those who do it differently or in another way, say more related to our culture today, are they being disobedient to scripture ?
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Sudsy
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Re: Are We Saved By Our Acts Of Obedience?

Post by Sudsy »

GaryK wrote:
Sudsy wrote: Amen. We love God and that should be the driver of our obedience.
I agree completely. But isn't it possible for the driver of an emphasis on obedience to be ones love for God? Obedience is not a scary word.
I view the driver to be the two commandments that all other actions come from. A focus on these two loving God and others. Obedience is not a scary word to one who believes in a loving Father that wants the best life possible for His child. Love is made real by actions. If we love Him we will obey although it will be an imperfect obedience. I just don't believe these imperfections in our attempts to obey and how we understand what to obey, should we fail here and there, removes us from God's family but it seems others do.
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GaryK
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Re: Are We Saved By Our Acts Of Obedience?

Post by GaryK »

Sudsy wrote:
GaryK wrote:
Sudsy wrote: Because in some cases Jesus was addressing a specific person and what He said doesn't apply to us all. And there is timing and culture, etc. Take for instance, foot washing. Was this a once a year practise to be held in a church service with other Christians who already had clean feet ? This practise in Jesus day was whenever you entered someone's home. So, are we all disobedient if we do it once a year or in some other way today that is still a humble act of service ?
Have you considered when in the course of the evening Jesus washed their feet? It wasn't when they entered the house but after supper. I don't think Jesus was doing the cultural practice of that day.
That is true but Jesus was using a common practise of that day to make a point. The common, every day foot washing was not to wash the feet of someone on the same level of society as yourself, a peer level. Servants and women did this role. Paul speaks of widows doing that to the saints as a good qualifying act. Jesus used this common practise of that day to show His disciples that this was not a Kingdom way to treat each other. We are to humbly serve each other. There is to be no such thing as being 'greater' than another in God's Kingdom.
These are the points I like to think about as I'm literally washing the feet of my brother. I love Jesus' example of humility and want to be like him in every way possible.
Sudsy wrote:But if we are to be literally obedient as the practise is explained, then should it not be done on the night of the Passover day after a supper and perhaps men only ? In our ways of obeying some take things more literal than others and so do those who do it differently or in another way, say more related to our culture today, are they being disobedient to scripture ?
I don't think it's quite this complicated. The way in which you ask these questions implies that obedience is the only possible driver for this practice. Why can't it be a love for Jesus and our brothers/neighbors?
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