Are We Saved By Our Acts Of Obedience?

General Christian Theology
Post Reply

Are we justified before God by our acts of obedience?

 
Total votes: 0

User avatar
Josh
Posts: 23806
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2016 6:23 pm
Location: 1000' ASL
Affiliation: The church of God

Re: Are We Saved By Our Acts Of Obedience?

Post by Josh »

Sudsy wrote:
Josh wrote:Paul,

As a Mennonite, I suggest you dial in to our revival services some week. The preaching is on justification by faith alone, salvation by Jesus’ work, and the futility of a works based salvation.
Not addressed to me but do I understand what you are saying is that all of the 'rules of conduct' or whatever they are called in your church have to do with on-going sanctification (best practises in following Jesus) and not justification. If correct, is this the most common understanding of those who consider themselves 'conservative Christians' or do many preach there is a level of obedience required (works) to 'remain saved' ?

The way you worded the preaching in those revival services would be the kind of services I would support.
Holdemans maintain orthodox (ie evangelical) views of salvation and works, as do other conservative Mennonites.

Of course, we have to put up with the rest of the world claiming “they think they will be saved because of their plain clothes”.
0 x
RZehr
Posts: 7024
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2016 12:42 am
Affiliation: Cons. Mennonite

Re: Are We Saved By Our Acts Of Obedience?

Post by RZehr »

Josh wrote:
Sudsy wrote:
Josh wrote:Paul,

As a Mennonite, I suggest you dial in to our revival services some week. The preaching is on justification by faith alone, salvation by Jesus’ work, and the futility of a works based salvation.
Not addressed to me but do I understand what you are saying is that all of the 'rules of conduct' or whatever they are called in your church have to do with on-going sanctification (best practises in following Jesus) and not justification. If correct, is this the most common understanding of those who consider themselves 'conservative Christians' or do many preach there is a level of obedience required (works) to 'remain saved' ?

The way you worded the preaching in those revival services would be the kind of services I would support.
Holdemans maintain orthodox (ie evangelical) views of salvation and works, as do other conservative Mennonites.

Of course, we have to put up with the rest of the world claiming “they think they will be saved because of their plain clothes”.
I concur with Josh.
0 x
Sudsy
Posts: 5854
Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2017 3:32 pm
Affiliation: .

Re: Are We Saved By Our Acts Of Obedience?

Post by Sudsy »

RZehr wrote:
Josh wrote:
Sudsy wrote:
Not addressed to me but do I understand what you are saying is that all of the 'rules of conduct' or whatever they are called in your church have to do with on-going sanctification (best practises in following Jesus) and not justification. If correct, is this the most common understanding of those who consider themselves 'conservative Christians' or do many preach there is a level of obedience required (works) to 'remain saved' ?

The way you worded the preaching in those revival services would be the kind of services I would support.
Holdemans maintain orthodox (ie evangelical) views of salvation and works, as do other conservative Mennonites.

Of course, we have to put up with the rest of the world claiming “they think they will be saved because of their plain clothes”.
I concur with Josh.
Good to hear as I was wondering from some posts.
0 x
Pursuing a Kingdom life in the Spirit
GaryK
Posts: 2279
Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2016 6:24 pm
Location: Georgia
Affiliation: Unaffiliated

Re: Are We Saved By Our Acts Of Obedience?

Post by GaryK »

2 Thessalonians 1:8 NKJV 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
I thought about this thread when I read this verse this morning. It seems to me the question in the thread title could be answered yes according to this verse.
0 x
Sudsy
Posts: 5854
Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2017 3:32 pm
Affiliation: .

Re: Are We Saved By Our Acts Of Obedience?

Post by Sudsy »

GaryK wrote:
2 Thessalonians 1:8 NKJV 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
I thought about this thread when I read this verse this morning. It seems to me the question in the thread title could be answered yes according to this verse.
And what is this gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ that must be obeyed ? Is it not the Gospel that Paul says saves us - 1 Cor 15:1-5
Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain. For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures, and that He was seen by (and he points to those who seen him).
So, yes, I agree, according to the thread title we must obey the call to a belief in Christ. We must, as this says, both receive it (salvation being a gift) and stand firm in it (don't return the gift). In Acts 2 we read them asking Peter 'What shall we do?'
“Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.” Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?” Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.”
And there are other supporting scriptures to doing to be saved - Romans 10:9-10 for instance.

Some don't think this is enough doing to be saved and yet they have no suggestion on how many further steps of obedience are required. Unless one believes perfect obedience is required and possible and they are living that way, then they can't be saved.

A new heart will pursue obedience even though we fall short many times, I believe as we hold firm to our belief in Christ we will be saved. Blessed assurance Jesus is mine and I am His. 'Heir of salvation, purchase of God, born of His Spirit, washed in His blood. This is my story this is my song."
0 x
Pursuing a Kingdom life in the Spirit
User avatar
Josh
Posts: 23806
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2016 6:23 pm
Location: 1000' ASL
Affiliation: The church of God

Re: Are We Saved By Our Acts Of Obedience?

Post by Josh »

I think obedience is required.

If I think I am a believer, yet I go and shoot someone in cold blood every day, I don’t see how any serious person can think I am “saved” or “following Jesus” or in his kingdom.
0 x
GaryK
Posts: 2279
Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2016 6:24 pm
Location: Georgia
Affiliation: Unaffiliated

Re: Are We Saved By Our Acts Of Obedience?

Post by GaryK »

Sudsy wrote:
GaryK wrote:
2 Thessalonians 1:8 NKJV 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
I thought about this thread when I read this verse this morning. It seems to me the question in the thread title could be answered yes according to this verse.
And what is this gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ that must be obeyed ? Is it not the Gospel that Paul says saves us - 1 Cor 15:1-5
Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain. For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures, and that He was seen by (and he points to those who seen him).
So, yes, I agree, according to the thread title we must obey the call to a belief in Christ. We must, as this says, both receive it (salvation being a gift) and stand firm in it (don't return the gift). In Acts 2 we read them asking Peter 'What shall we do?'
“Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.” Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?” Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.”
And there are other supporting scriptures to doing to be saved - Romans 10:9-10 for instance.

Some don't think this is enough doing to be saved and yet they have no suggestion on how many further steps of obedience are required. Unless one believes perfect obedience is required and possible and they are living that way, then they can't be saved.

A new heart will pursue obedience even though we fall short many times, I believe as we hold firm to our belief in Christ we will be saved. Blessed assurance Jesus is mine and I am His. 'Heir of salvation, purchase of God, born of His Spirit, washed in His blood. This is my story this is my song."
IMO, the good news of Jesus is about much more than the initial new birth. It's about the whole plan for His Kingdom. One can't be a part of this Kingdom without obeying Jesus' command to be born again but neither can one remain in the Kingdom if there is an unwillingness to submit to the rules of the Kingdom. Both require obedience in order to be saved. And IMO, you can't separate the two. Neither one works without the other.
0 x
MaxPC
Posts: 9044
Joined: Sat Oct 22, 2016 9:09 pm
Location: Former full time RVers
Affiliation: PlainRomanCatholic
Contact:

Re: Are We Saved By Our Acts Of Obedience?

Post by MaxPC »

GaryK wrote: IMO, the good news of Jesus is about much more than the initial new birth. It's about the whole plan for His Kingdom. One can't be a part of this Kingdom without obeying Jesus' command to be born again but neither can one remain in the Kingdom if there is an unwillingness to submit to the rules of the Kingdom. Both require obedience in order to be saved.And IMO, you can't separate the two. Neither one works without the other.
I could not have said it better. Amen.
:up:
0 x
Max (Plain Catholic)
Mt 24:35
Proverbs 18:2 A fool does not delight in understanding but only in revealing his own mind.
1 Corinthians 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is folly with God
Sudsy
Posts: 5854
Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2017 3:32 pm
Affiliation: .

Re: Are We Saved By Our Acts Of Obedience?

Post by Sudsy »

GaryK wrote: IMO, the good news of Jesus is about much more than the initial new birth. It's about the whole plan for His Kingdom. One can't be a part of this Kingdom without obeying Jesus' command to be born again but neither can one remain in the Kingdom if there is an unwillingness to submit to the rules of the Kingdom. Both require obedience in order to be saved. And IMO, you can't separate the two. Neither one works without the other.
Firstly, I agree that faith without works is not a saving faith. But exactly what are the 'rules of the Kingdom' that must be obeyed to 'remain in the Kingdom' ? Is a rule of the Kingdom to, for instances, hate your family or sell all and give the money to the poor or don't think a lustful thought and commit adultery or be out sharing our faith daily or visiting those in prison, etc, etc. ? I find when I ask questions like these, they don't get answers.

If salvation depends on our perfect obedience then none of us would be saved ? And if not perfect obedience, where is the line we cross and are kicked out of the Kingdom ? This is where I have a problem with the idea of being 'obedient enough' to remain in the Kingdom or stay saved.

If it is our willingness to submit to Kingdom rules, we first need them spelled out clearly, do we not ? And we differ even within Anabaptism about what is and what is not being obedient in various areas. We can think a woman not wearing a head covering is being wilfully disobedient in one breath and in the next say however, they still remain saved.

So, I'm puzzled at this 'remaining in the Kingdom' criteria and if no one knows when they cross that line, having any assurance of their salvation would be impossible.
0 x
Pursuing a Kingdom life in the Spirit
cmbl
Posts: 449
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 10:07 pm
Affiliation: Pilgrim, NMB
Contact:

Re: Are We Saved By Our Acts Of Obedience?

Post by cmbl »

I have never heard someone who openly says obedience is required for salvation ask how much is required. I have only heard that question asked by people who say obedience is not required for salvation. This fundamental disconnect baffles and fascinates me.
Sudsy wrote:If it is our willingness to submit to Kingdom rules, we first need them spelled out clearly, do we not ?
I don't think so. We can start to obey with a very limited understanding.

I enjoy pondering the Johannine phrases "keep my commandments" and "keep his commandments". How does John use these phrases? Does he admit the question "how much is required?" Does he think it's possible to keep Jesus' commandments?
0 x
"Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous."
Post Reply