Why Did The Holy Spirit Come?

General Christian Theology
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Bootstrap
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Re: Why Did The Holy Spirit Come?

Post by Bootstrap »

Sudsy wrote:He does speak to us as individuals and also collectively. Many examples of both of these are found in scripture and the individual directions are not always checked out through the brethren. He gives immediate direction at times where it is up to us to obey immediately.

However, it seems He is very tolerant of our mis-interpretations of His voice as we end up with all these factions in Christianity with varied practises that we all believe are Spirit guided. Some of these beliefs people follow from an individual leader, some from a group of believers. In both cases, they are not the same truths as those of other Christian leaders or groups. Group leadings sound to be more accurate yet they still differ from group to group. Just saying that if we were all lead by the Holy Spirit in the areas that really matter most to God, I would think on these we would agree.
I don't think our disagreements are generally about the things that really matter most to God.

Holiness, caring for the poor, justice, truly loving our neighbor, deeply trusting God, etc. are at the heart of our faith, most Christians agree on that, and we aren't as good at it as we should be. So we focus on easier things to show people how great we are - the best systematic theology, the most religious clothing, our own distinctive worship style - and we keep the focus on those things by treating them as proof that we are better than other Christians.

That's where we really need the Holy Spirit. Not to tell us who is right about these areas of disagreement.
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ken_sylvania
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Re: Why Did The Holy Spirit Come?

Post by ken_sylvania »

silentreader wrote:
ken_sylvania wrote:The Holy Spirit was sent to guide us into truth (John 16:13) which would include teaching us how to live lives pleasing to God. I believe that the statement "he will guide you into all truth." was directed to the disciples as a group, and that the fullest fulfillment of this promise is to the church as a group. I do not disagree that the Holy Spirit reveals things to each of us, but our individual understanding of the Spirit's leading should be tempered by our brethren.
And yet they were told to go out into all the world.... So if they went out separately the Holy Spirit would no longer guide them?
The Holy Spirit is not limited to doing only what was promised on one specific occasion.

The account of Philip and the account of Ananias would indicate that the Holy Spirit may direct individuals.
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Sudsy
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Re: Why Did The Holy Spirit Come?

Post by Sudsy »

Bootstrap wrote:
Sudsy wrote:He does speak to us as individuals and also collectively. Many examples of both of these are found in scripture and the individual directions are not always checked out through the brethren. He gives immediate direction at times where it is up to us to obey immediately.

However, it seems He is very tolerant of our mis-interpretations of His voice as we end up with all these factions in Christianity with varied practises that we all believe are Spirit guided. Some of these beliefs people follow from an individual leader, some from a group of believers. In both cases, they are not the same truths as those of other Christian leaders or groups. Group leadings sound to be more accurate yet they still differ from group to group. Just saying that if we were all lead by the Holy Spirit in the areas that really matter most to God, I would think on these we would agree.
I don't think our disagreements are generally about the things that really matter most to God.

Holiness, caring for the poor, justice, truly loving our neighbor, deeply trusting God, etc. are at the heart of our faith, most Christians agree on that, and we aren't as good at it as we should be. So we focus on easier things to show people how great we are - the best systematic theology, the most religious clothing, our own distinctive worship style - and we keep the focus on those things by treating them as proof that we are better than other Christians.

That's where we really need the Holy Spirit. Not to tell us who is right about these areas of disagreement.
This would be closest to how I view this understanding on the 'truth' directed by the Spirit. What is it that matters most to God. Some texts regarding what God sees that matters most.

Micah 6:6-8 includes; “Wherewith shall I come before the Lord and bow myself before the high God? Shall I come before him with burnt offerings, with calves of a year old? Will the lord be pleased with thousands of rams, or with ten thousands of rivers of oil? Shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul? He hath showed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the Lord require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God.” (underlining mine)

And again in James 4:10 - “Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.”

I think there can be good intentions on why Christian practise is covenanted to follow as a group and not all of it is based on the ego (our church has the right practise as a believer) but it can be majoring on things Jesus did not point to as most important and He was pretty direct with the religious people in His day. What did Jesus tell them on what are 'more important matters' -

"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices--mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law--justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. (underlining mine).

Then in the same Mathew 23 text He talks much about the ego issues in the Pharisee practise and their hypocrisy telling them they lacked humility, again what is important to God - "For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted." God hates pride and resist the proud and gives His grace to the humble.

So, in these few examples it is in loving our neighbours as ourselves and showing mercy (as Jesus describes elsewhere like in the good Samaritan story), being faithful in our practise, walking humbly before God and many other areas we see in Mathew 23. Perhaps if we could see our practise from an unchurched person's viewpoint, it would be easier to see that what Jesus considered as light shining are the things we need to change and focus on to draw people to follow Jesus.
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silentreader
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Re: Why Did The Holy Spirit Come?

Post by silentreader »

Sudsy wrote:
Bootstrap wrote:
Sudsy wrote:He does speak to us as individuals and also collectively. Many examples of both of these are found in scripture and the individual directions are not always checked out through the brethren. He gives immediate direction at times where it is up to us to obey immediately.

However, it seems He is very tolerant of our mis-interpretations of His voice as we end up with all these factions in Christianity with varied practises that we all believe are Spirit guided. Some of these beliefs people follow from an individual leader, some from a group of believers. In both cases, they are not the same truths as those of other Christian leaders or groups. Group leadings sound to be more accurate yet they still differ from group to group. Just saying that if we were all lead by the Holy Spirit in the areas that really matter most to God, I would think on these we would agree.
I don't think our disagreements are generally about the things that really matter most to God.

Holiness, caring for the poor, justice, truly loving our neighbor, deeply trusting God, etc. are at the heart of our faith, most Christians agree on that, and we aren't as good at it as we should be. So we focus on easier things to show people how great we are - the best systematic theology, the most religious clothing, our own distinctive worship style - and we keep the focus on those things by treating them as proof that we are better than other Christians.

That's where we really need the Holy Spirit. Not to tell us who is right about these areas of disagreement.
This would be closest to how I view this understanding on the 'truth' directed by the Spirit. What is it that matters most to God. Some texts regarding what God sees that matters most.

Micah 6:6-8 includes; “Wherewith shall I come before the Lord and bow myself before the high God? Shall I come before him with burnt offerings, with calves of a year old? Will the lord be pleased with thousands of rams, or with ten thousands of rivers of oil? Shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul? He hath showed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the Lord require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God.” (underlining mine)

And again in James 4:10 - “Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.”

I think there can be good intentions on why Christian practise is covenanted to follow as a group and not all of it is based on the ego (our church has the right practise as a believer) but it can be majoring on things Jesus did not point to as most important and He was pretty direct with the religious people in His day. What did Jesus tell them on what are 'more important matters' -

"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices--mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law--justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. (underlining mine).

Then in the same Mathew 23 text He talks much about the ego issues in the Pharisee practise and their hypocrisy telling them they lacked humility, again what is important to God - "For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted." God hates pride and resist the proud and gives His grace to the humble.

So, in these few examples it is in loving our neighbours as ourselves and showing mercy (as Jesus describes elsewhere like in the good Samaritan story), being faithful in our practise, walking humbly before God and many other areas we see in Mathew 23. Perhaps if we could see our practise from an unchurched person's viewpoint, it would be easier to see that what Jesus considered as light shining are the things we need to change and focus on to draw people to follow Jesus.
The reason I had referenced the underlined was because you had twice suggested Spirit guidance in these areas of difference. I agree however, that these areas can not be involving the Holy Spirit because the Holy Spirit is not the author of confusion, and our practices are no longer about truth, but about an interpretation of perceived truth.
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silentreader
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Re: Why Did The Holy Spirit Come?

Post by silentreader »

In Him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of His glory. In Him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in Him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it to the praise of His glory.
Ephesians 1:11-14 (ESV)
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Hats Off
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Re: Why Did The Holy Spirit Come?

Post by Hats Off »

In spite of the confusion and disagreements, I believe that most plain Anabaptists do agree on the areas that God is most concerned about. If we were to focus on what we have in common and forget more of the areas we disagree on, we would not need all the groups. When we will make room for true Holy Spirit directed revival, I believe many from various groups will be drawn together into one body, seeking to follow Jesus as one.
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MaxPC
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Re: Why Did The Holy Spirit Come?

Post by MaxPC »

Hats Off wrote:In spite of the confusion and disagreements, I believe that most plain Anabaptists do agree on the areas that God is most concerned about. If we were to focus on what we have in common and forget more of the areas we disagree on, we would not need all the groups. When we will make room for true Holy Spirit directed revival, I believe many from various groups will be drawn together into one body, seeking to follow Jesus as one.
Amen and amen!
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