Personal convictions?

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Sudsy
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Re: Personal convictions?

Post by Sudsy »

Is the head covering a personal conviction ? It sounds to me that it is a mandated practise by some and if not adhered to is an act of disobedience in following the Lord. If considered disobedience, then is it only willful disobedience if one interprets the text as required obedience by the scripture but refuses to wear one.

What if the practise of not wearing one is to keep from drawing attention to themselves like the Pharisees did with their clothes ? Some feel 'convicted' perhaps that unique clothing, like uniform types, are drawing attention to the wrong things that Jesus and Paul said should be a woman's main identifiers as a Christian woman.

Didn't want to get back on this topic but like the Pentecostals and their unknown tongues evidence of Spirit filling, many Anabaptists make this area one of their most prime topics to focus on. Our MB church leaves it up to the individual as a personal conviction not an area of disobedience.
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Josh
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Re: Personal convictions?

Post by Josh »

Is 1 Corinthians 11 a personal conviction? If it is, why not the rest of the book?
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Sudsy
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Re: Personal convictions?

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Josh wrote:Is 1 Corinthians 11 a personal conviction? If it is, why not the rest of the book?
Isn't that like saying when Jesus says to follow Him we need to hate our family and so everything Jesus said should be taken literally ?

Since it is a text interpreted different ways, some are convinced in their conscience different than others. According to Romans 14 they might say wear or not wear but do it unto the Lord as He is our final judge. My mother did not take off her wedding ring but her practise was not to wear a necklace as it reminded her of the chains of sin spoken of in scripture. This was one of her personal choices in how she lived in serving the Lord. I think we are guided often in personal ways in both keeping from sin and in our holiness.

I think most here though would agree that women who don't wear a head covering are risking their salvation by what some view as disobedience to scripture.
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Josh
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Re: Personal convictions?

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I think most here though would agree that women who don't wear a head covering are risking their salvation by what some view as disobedience to scripture.
I can’t speak for others here, but conservative Mennonites that I know and in my particular church group don’t think you risk your salvation by not obeying Corinthians.

We do believe you miss out on a victorious Christian life, and that it does put you more at risk of being a reprobate.

Corinthians tells men not to keep company with prostitutes. Will a man who disobeys this lose his salvation? No, but he risks succumbing to a habit of sexual sin which could indeed lead him to eventually turn his back on God.

It also tells women to follow the creation order and wear a visible reminder of the proper order of submission to their husbands. What if they don’t do this? No, salvation won’t be lost, but the blessing of healthy marriages very well may be (as we can see across society both in Christian and non-Christian homes).

What the scriptures tell us to do isn’t there as a threat of “do this or else”. It’s more of a guardrail telling us how to avoid falling off a cliff that’s not too far away, even if we can’t see it.
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Re: Personal convictions?

Post by lesterb »

I think most here though would agree that women who don't wear a head covering are risking their salvation by what some view as disobedience to scripture.
There are differing kinds of Bible commands. Some give a principle which we need to interpret in a biblical fashion. Others are direct commands which don't need interpretation. Some are a mixture, perhaps. I Cor 11 uses some pretty direct language that can hardly be misunderstood. It is a shame for a woman to cut her hair, and she needs to cover it, not because of Corinthian harlots, but because of God's principle of headship. Women who ignore it, are ignoring a direct command of God and the principle behind it.

I'm not saying that women who don't cover their heads are never Christians. If they are doing it because of ignorance is one thing. But if they are doing it out of rebellion against God's command, then its a different story.

I think our people are too quick to brush off Bible commands. I heard that in church a couple of weeks ago. The speaker said something about people who don't see it like we do but are still Christians. And the minister spoke up and agreed. I'm sure that there were youth there who wondered if it doesn't matter more than all that, why do we have to do these things. The thing is a Bible command is a Bible command. And I don't think we should nonchalantly just decide that it doesn't mean what it clearly says.

So I guess I agree with your closing statement more than Josh does. And I suspect his preacher would say the same.
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Josh
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Re: Personal convictions?

Post by Josh »

Well, we are a bit strict about being careful not to link salvation as being caused by you obeying specific Bible teachings.

Instead, salvation is a free gift. A person who has had a new birth experience wants to obey Jesus and follow Bible teachings. So a sign of a true believer is they try to follow the Bible.

The real question is: why would someone who is saved not want to obey 1 Corinthians 11? It seems illogical to us to ask the question “Can I be saved but get away with not obeying?”
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Sudsy
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Re: Personal convictions?

Post by Sudsy »

Josh wrote:Well, we are a bit strict about being careful not to link salvation as being caused by you obeying specific Bible teachings.

Instead, salvation is a free gift. A person who has had a new birth experience wants to obey Jesus and follow Bible teachings. So a sign of a true believer is they try to follow the Bible.

The real question is: why would someone who is saved not want to obey 1 Corinthians 11? It seems illogical to us to ask the question “Can I be saved but get away with not obeying?”
First I appreciate your group's approach to this to keep salvation apart from obeying specific Bible teachings. And I think we 'cherry pick' the ones we obey by the letter and the ones we obey in a spiritual sense.

OK, then let's check two areas for consistency about what we do and do not obey -

First water baptism - Why would some Christians not baptise by immersion (as I believe your group does not use this mode) as the description Paul gives in Romans 6 that water baptism by immersion is the biblical method of baptism because of its symbolic representation of the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ.
'As we are completely immersed in the water, we symbolize burial with our Lord; we are baptized into His death on the cross and are no longer slaves to self or sin (Romans 6:3–7). When we are raised out of the water, we are symbolically resurrected—raised to new life in Christ to be with Him forever, born into the family of our loving God (Romans 8:16).
Taken from here - https://www.gotquestions.org/water-baptism.html

Now the head covering - Not all believe they are being disobedient by not wearing a head covering as it too was a symbol and one that was common in that culture. Today in our culture it does not have the same meaning.
The real issue here is the heart attitude of obedience to God's authority and submission to His established order “as to the LORD” (Ephesians 5:22). God is far more concerned with an attitude of submission than an outward display of submission via a head covering
Taken from here - https://www.gotquestions.org/water-baptism.html

If one believes the symbol of both of these issues should still be followed today as they originally occurred, to be consistent, they should follow both, right ?
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Re: Personal convictions?

Post by JimFoxvog »

Josh wrote:Is 1 Corinthians 11 a personal conviction? If it is, why not the rest of the book?
By saying "1 Corinthians 11" are you only referring to women covering their heads, and not to men leaving their heads uncovered?
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Josh
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Re: Personal convictions?

Post by Josh »

Sudsy wrote:First I appreciate your group's approach to this to keep salvation apart from obeying specific Bible teachings. And I think we 'cherry pick' the ones we obey by the letter and the ones we obey in a spiritual sense.

OK, then let's check two areas for consistency about what we do and do not obey -

First water baptism - Why would some Christians not baptise by immersion (as I believe your group does not use this mode) as the description Paul gives in Romans 6 that water baptism by immersion is the biblical method of baptism because of its symbolic representation of the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ.
'As we are completely immersed in the water, we symbolize burial with our Lord; we are baptized into His death on the cross and are no longer slaves to self or sin (Romans 6:3–7). When we are raised out of the water, we are symbolically resurrected—raised to new life in Christ to be with Him forever, born into the family of our loving God (Romans 8:16).
Taken from here - https://www.gotquestions.org/water-baptism.html

Now the head covering - Not all believe they are being disobedient by not wearing a head covering as it too was a symbol and one that was common in that culture. Today in our culture it does not have the same meaning.
The real issue here is the heart attitude of obedience to God's authority and submission to His established order “as to the LORD” (Ephesians 5:22). God is far more concerned with an attitude of submission than an outward display of submission via a head covering
Taken from here - https://www.gotquestions.org/water-baptism.html

If one believes the symbol of both of these issues should still be followed today as they originally occurred, to be consistent, they should follow both, right ?
We believe the idea behind the symbol, not the symbol itself, is important. We don’t believe a certain style / cut / distinctiveness is mandated by scripture, or a particular mode of baptism.

A specific congregation can choose to use a particular style or mode as they have a duty to let all things be done in order.
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Re: Personal convictions?

Post by Hats Off »

Sudsy, we have been over the head covering and baptism many times on MennoDiscuss and MennoNet. You and I both know that we don't agree and aren't likely to agree on these and more topics. We obviously have our reasons for our position on both topics mentioned; I stand ready to explain if someone truly wants to know the "why" but to just go in circles is not helpful. On Sunday noon we visited in the home of Brethern friends, staunch dispensationalists and eternal security. We had a long visit, just talking about areas that we agree on but staying a reasonable distance from areas where we differ. I will do the same with JW people I meet - I know I have little chance of converting them. I suggest we do the same here. Respect and appreciate each other despite our differences and go from there. I realize there are areas where you wonder how we look at certain aspects and that is okay. But those areas that we have gone over many times, we may as well leave those dicussions for others.
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