Personal convictions?

General Christian Theology
silentreader
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Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2016 9:41 pm
Affiliation: MidWest Fellowship

Re: Personal convictions?

Post by silentreader »

Sudsy wrote:
Heirbyadoption wrote:
Sudsy wrote:Is the head covering a personal conviction ? It sounds to me that it is a mandated practise by some and if not adhered to is an act of disobedience in following the Lord. If considered disobedience, then is it only willful disobedience if one interprets the text as required obedience by the scripture but refuses to wear one.

What if the practise of not wearing one is to keep from drawing attention to themselves like the Pharisees did with their clothes ? Some feel 'convicted' perhaps that unique clothing, like uniform types, are drawing attention to the wrong things that Jesus and Paul said should be a woman's main identifiers as a Christian woman.

Didn't want to get back on this topic but like the Pentecostals and their unknown tongues evidence of Spirit filling, many Anabaptists make this area one of their most prime topics to focus on. Our MB church leaves it up to the individual as a personal conviction not an area of disobedience.
Sudsy, since it was my comments originally (in sharing the faulty source material account) that got us back on this subject, I'll reply, but I'm going to shift your response paragraphs around just a touch in order to answer you. I think it may help me answer you, without doing any damage to your thoughts.

I'm back from my bodily exercise and will respond in blue (hope you're not coloured blind :lol: )
Didn't want to get back on this topic but like the Pentecostals and their unknown tongues evidence of Spirit filling, many Anabaptists make this area one of their most prime topics to focus on. Our MB church leaves it up to the individual as a personal conviction not an area of disobedience.
I admit it gets harped on to the detriment of other important issues, and becomes a less-than beautiful teaching very very quickly. I grieve over this fact, honestly. I submit this emphasis is due (simply as fact and not necessarily justification) in part to its immediate visibility (in opposition to broader professing Christian culture, and also to its linkage (by usage) with the concept of uniform cut/style of dress and covering in a lot of groups. And thirdly, because the Scriptures specifically commands its usage by women in general, whereas tongues is not commanded to be practiced by all, even if it is encouraged as a wonderful thing. The fundamental question here (and which leads some to let it be practiced only as personal conviction allows) is whether it was/is still relevant after the 1st century church at Corinth.

Agree. (my underlining)
Is the head covering a personal conviction? It sounds to me that it is a mandated practice by some and if not adhered to is an act of disobedience in following the Lord. If considered disobedience, then is it only willful disobedience if one interprets the text as required obedience by the scripture but refuses to wear one.
Lester's comment touches on a point here that people kinda waffle around on so as not to create conflict sometimes (I don't mean he was): I'm not saying that women who don't cover their heads are never Christians. If they are doing it because of ignorance is one thing. But if they are doing it out of rebellion against God's command, then its a different story.
Is the head covering a matter of personal conviction? You asked "IS it", not "SHOULD it be", so I'm only going to answer that for myself at this point. After about 10 years study specifically focused on the subject (I got fed up with the endless arguments and division over it and went looking on my own), which is where the book developed from, I have come to the point that I will personally say with confidence, based upon what I have found in the text, the teaching and maintaining of the practice through history, and and additional evidences, that while we ought to have a personal conviction on the matter, no, it is too well documented and supported to be left in the nebulous area of what we contemporarily refer to as "personal conviction" rather than relevant "Biblical command." I don't think you personally are doing this, but such statements do tend to prompt the knee jerk reaction/response of assuming therefore that I'm lumping the practice of the headship veiling into the salvational issue file and anybody who doesn't cover is headed for Hades or are at least disobedient rebels.

I respect your conviction as one well thought through scripturally that it is a command.

Let's go ahead and shoot that elephant. A couple guys have gotten a bit of a start on it, but for my 2 cents, perhaps my perspective is more lenient than some are comfortable with, but why should I spank my 3 year old son when he tears the protective nets off of my berry bushes after he has been told not to, simply because he hasn't yet realized that there are beautiful berries coming in a couple months and the instructions I received are to cover the bushes with nets to protect them from the birds? Should I discipline his lack of conviction (on the instructions we have on how to specifically protect the berries) as that of a disobedient and rebellious child, or should I patiently recognize that in his life he has not yet seen or does not yet understand the purpose and effectiveness of the instructions to cover the berries? After I have explained it to him, perhaps multiple times (those of you with 3 years olds will understand this), there may come a point where we both know why the berries are to be covered, but it’s rarely immediate. In our zeal, we too easily forget our Father’s graciousness at times.

So, you are suggesting a different view on this from yours is a sign of spiritual immaturity. ;) Just kidding but others may think that while dropping the veil symbol they can still believe and live out the order of headship and that this is a more spiritually mature way of practise. Would you say those who continued as believers with the slavery system of Jesus day were immature spiritually until slavery was abolished ? Should we still stick with slaves and masters of slaves and follow how a Christian should live as one or the other ? Or should we 'roll with the culture we are in' so to speak ?

I know some of my non-veiling friends may take that analogy as arrogant. I wish they didn’t. All I’m saying is that I have come to recognize (in my interactions with many of them over the years) that A. many of my non-veiling friends base their belief and practice (as regards headship veiling) simply on what they have been taught, and sometimes from the reactions of other friends/family who have left Anabaptist (and similar churches) and dropped veiling as part of the package, and B. that they have accepted the contemporary Christian culture (most of whom have never studied the subject or accepted the (demonstrably inaccurate {yes, I said that and will back it up if you want}) interpretations and objections given by sincere contemporary teachers and study materials (refer back to the faulty source reference that started us back on veiling here, lol).

Agree. Many if not most professing Christians don't study these issues for themselves and are willing to go with who is their 'authority' on these things. Also, we tend to do what is most comfortable in our culture. I've known some people would not be immersed just because they don't want to be seen as a wet head. Or they have ugly feet and don't want anyone washing them. Or the 'holy kiss' could be viewed as a gay practise in our culture today.

Let me ask you this. If you’re wrong, and there’s a chance that it’s actually NOT a matter of personal conviction but rather a relevant Biblical command that the children of God are asked to utilize to bring glory to Him, would that be important enough to you to want to know if somebody told you they could show you? Or does the concept of personal conviction appeal to you enough that you’d rather just take the risk of it not being relevant for the church today? I’m not interested in beating a dead horse; heaven knows there are a pile of them buried way back in MD and a few in here. But by the same token, if you or anybody are interested, I’d be willing to go through The Evidence and absolutely any Objections or Reasons not to teach and practice the headship veiling. In the end it’s a very personal decision, but for all our convictions, it seems we don’t always look at the fact. As for objections, I haven’t found one yet that holds water, but I’m always interested in considering where I may have missed something, and I’m always glad for brothers or sisters who are willing to help me see such a thing. I just put it out there if you or anybody would be interested.

Personally, since I'm not a woman, I have scanned the various views on internet sites but since it doesn't involve me, I don't have much interest. It isn't a personal conviction or a command meant for me as far as I know. But if there is an area of command that applies to me I am glad to explore other views.

What concerns me is that men especially will go into so much study and argument on an area like this and don't get into areas affecting themselves as men anywhere close to this topic. When the headship order is focused on it can lead to this 'submit woman' attitude and the next command to love our wives as Christ loved the church and gave Himself for her gets little and sometimes no study. If we love our wives as Christ loves the church any wife would find submission to be an easy headship order to follow. Sadly, men throughout history, including church history if it were fully known, I believe have abused their wives with a twisted view of wife submission. I know I went through some times of doing some verbal abuse. Various forms of abuse are coming more to the surface today, which I think is about time.

What if the practice of not wearing one is to keep from drawing attention to themselves like the Pharisees did with their clothes? Some feel 'convicted' perhaps that unique clothing, like uniform types, are drawing attention to the wrong things that Jesus and Paul said should be a woman's main identifiers as a Christian woman.
I completely agree, uniform clothing can very often draw attention to the wrong things. What if? I submit to you we’re talking hypothetically here, which pales next to the common objections/reasons… I have only found 1 person in all my personal discussions that every seriously offered me this reason not to veil, and it wasn’t even her primary. However, in the end, everyone answers to God, not me. I’m simply coming to the discussion from a study that believes my convictions must square with the evidence for the relevance of the teaching. I submit to you that, when it comes to specific commands, the headship veiling gets more Scripture time than the other “main” identifiers for a Christian women. But unless we start up a thread to look at that, it’s just my word versus somebody else’s, and I’m not really anybody special that people will just assume I’m right… Hopefully I’ve answered your question somewhere in all that…? If not, I apologize for rambling.

No apology needed. I enjoy learning from others and like to challenge beliefs to determine if they hold water and what I will adopt as my own.
Some good discussion here by both of you. Might I add that often neglected is the fact that a man must be in a proper position in his relationship with the Head, Jesus Christ, in order for Biblical headship to work and to glorify God.
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Noah was a conspiracy theorist...and then it began to rain.~Unknown
Hats Off
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Re: Personal convictions?

Post by Hats Off »

No George, I do wear hats, that's how I can take them off. I just don't wear them inside. And I don't know if I have convictions about the necessity of wearing the hat.
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