Personal convictions?

[lesterb]

Well, does a lack of uniformity create a culture that makes it harder for people to notice and speak up if something might be wrong? Can it lead to a culture that judges spirituality by standards different from the New Testament standard?

Uniformity is utilitarian in nature. It makes the job easier. If everyone has to make their own standard, then who decides when someone is losing out on their separation? So we take Bible commands and try to decide on basic interpretations that are workable, then covenant to live by them. Most of our churches leave lots of room for variety within those interpretations. And not all expectations are necessarily written down.

I don't think any of us has a Bible verse ready for every expectation. For instance should a woman's sleeves come to the elbow, or below the elbow, or midway between elbow and wrist, or to the wrist? Got a Bible verse to answer that? But if a church decides on below the elbow and one family insists on to the elbow, there is a different problem than just the modesty issue.

Is it wrong for a group to have such expectations? I don't think so. We need to realize that the two inch difference between above the elbow or below isn't a matter of being saved or lost. It is a matter of having a guideline that God's people feel comfortable with. Of course if we become proud that we are such a good example to the congregation by making our sleeves several inches longer than expected, then we have a different problem. Or if we decide that the brotherhood has no business in telling me my sleeves are two inches too short, that too is indicative of a problem. I know that some of you will view this illustration of being legalistic. But what tends to happen is that all of a sudden, someone has sleeves halfway between the elbow and shoulder when the guideline said below the elbow. Or it becomes almost sleeveless.

I'd be glad to be part of a group that genuinely didn't need such standards. But I've never seen one that tried it and survived. Somehow, most churches fail to ingrain practical conviction into their members.

[silentreader]

Well, does a lack of uniformity create a culture that makes it harder for people to notice and speak up if something might be wrong? Can it lead to a culture that judges spirituality by standards different from the New Testament standard?

Uniformity is utilitarian in nature. It makes the job easier. If everyone has to make their own standard, then who decides when someone is losing out on their separation? So we take Bible commands and try to decide on basic interpretations that are workable, then covenant to live by them. Most of our churches leave lots of room for variety within those interpretations. And not all expectations are necessarily written down.

I don't think any of us has a Bible verse ready for every expectation. For instance should a woman's sleeves come to the elbow, or below the elbow, or midway between elbow and wrist, or to the wrist? Got a Bible verse to answer that? But if a church decides on below the elbow and one family insists on to the elbow, there is a different problem than just the modesty issue.

Is it wrong for a group to have such expectations? I don't think so. We need to realize that the two inch difference between above the elbow or below isn't a matter of being saved or lost. It is a matter of having a guideline that God's people feel comfortable with. Of course if we become proud that we are such a good example to the congregation by making our sleeves several inches longer than expected, then we have a different problem. Or if we decide that the brotherhood has no business in telling me my sleeves are two inches too short, that too is indicative of a problem. I know that some of you will view this illustration of being legalistic. But what tends to happen is that all of a sudden, someone has sleeves halfway between the elbow and shoulder when the guideline said below the elbow. Or it becomes almost sleeveless.

I'd be glad to be part of a group that genuinely didn't need such standards. But I've never seen one that tried it and survived. Somehow, most churches fail to ingrain practical conviction into their members.

How well is this working for us? Are we seeing a growth in Christian unity because of this legislated uniformity?

[Heirbyadoption]

Well, does a lack of uniformity create a culture that makes it harder for people to notice and speak up if something might be wrong? Can it lead to a culture that judges spirituality by standards different from the New Testament standard?

just my 2 cents, but to the first question I would say not as much as an enforced uniformity, and to the 2nd, it can but it seems less likely (because there are inherently less extrabiblical standards of uniformity) in my experience.

[lesterb]

Well, does a lack of uniformity create a culture that makes it harder for people to notice and speak up if something might be wrong? Can it lead to a culture that judges spirituality by standards different from the New Testament standard?

Uniformity is utilitarian in nature. It makes the job easier. If everyone has to make their own standard, then who decides when someone is losing out on their separation? So we take Bible commands and try to decide on basic interpretations that are workable, then covenant to live by them. Most of our churches leave lots of room for variety within those interpretations. And not all expectations are necessarily written down.

I don't think any of us has a Bible verse ready for every expectation. For instance should a woman's sleeves come to the elbow, or below the elbow, or midway between elbow and wrist, or to the wrist? Got a Bible verse to answer that? But if a church decides on below the elbow and one family insists on to the elbow, there is a different problem than just the modesty issue.

Is it wrong for a group to have such expectations? I don't think so. We need to realize that the two inch difference between above the elbow or below isn't a matter of being saved or lost. It is a matter of having a guideline that God's people feel comfortable with. Of course if we become proud that we are such a good example to the congregation by making our sleeves several inches longer than expected, then we have a different problem. Or if we decide that the brotherhood has no business in telling me my sleeves are two inches too short, that too is indicative of a problem. I know that some of you will view this illustration of being legalistic. But what tends to happen is that all of a sudden, someone has sleeves halfway between the elbow and shoulder when the guideline said below the elbow. Or it becomes almost sleeveless.

I'd be glad to be part of a group that genuinely didn't need such standards. But I've never seen one that tried it and survived. Somehow, most churches fail to ingrain practical conviction into their members.

How well is this working for us? Are we seeing a growth in Christian unity because of this legislated uniformity?

No. You know we haven't. Nor has the leadership oriented approach that RZehr described helped, in the long run. I was part of that for forty years or so. It might have looked a little better outwardly, but it didn't make for better Christians. I'd be happy for any further thoughts from you and RZehr and a few others. But maybe we should spin off a separate thread for it, rather than fill this one. I'd suggest that we start with people who are members in moderate conservative groups or more conservative.

[silentreader]

Uniformity is utilitarian in nature. It makes the job easier. If everyone has to make their own standard, then who decides when someone is losing out on their separation? So we take Bible commands and try to decide on basic interpretations that are workable, then covenant to live by them. Most of our churches leave lots of room for variety within those interpretations. And not all expectations are necessarily written down.

I don't think any of us has a Bible verse ready for every expectation. For instance should a woman's sleeves come to the elbow, or below the elbow, or midway between elbow and wrist, or to the wrist? Got a Bible verse to answer that? But if a church decides on below the elbow and one family insists on to the elbow, there is a different problem than just the modesty issue.

Is it wrong for a group to have such expectations? I don't think so. We need to realize that the two inch difference between above the elbow or below isn't a matter of being saved or lost. It is a matter of having a guideline that God's people feel comfortable with. Of course if we become proud that we are such a good example to the congregation by making our sleeves several inches longer than expected, then we have a different problem. Or if we decide that the brotherhood has no business in telling me my sleeves are two inches too short, that too is indicative of a problem. I know that some of you will view this illustration of being legalistic. But what tends to happen is that all of a sudden, someone has sleeves halfway between the elbow and shoulder when the guideline said below the elbow. Or it becomes almost sleeveless.

I'd be glad to be part of a group that genuinely didn't need such standards. But I've never seen one that tried it and survived. Somehow, most churches fail to ingrain practical conviction into their members.

How well is this working for us? Are we seeing a growth in Christian unity because of this legislated uniformity?

No. You know we haven't. Nor has the leadership oriented approach that RZehr described helped, in the long run. I was part of that for forty years or so. It might have looked a little better outwardly, but it didn't make for better Christians. I'd be happy for any further thoughts from you and RZehr and a few others. But maybe we should spin off a separate thread for it, rather than fill this one. I'd suggest that we start with people who are members in moderate conservative groups or more conservative.

Go ahead with the new thread if you wish, I'm not sure that I have any helpful answers, as near as I can tell it needs to start with an individual's dedication to unity, at the expense often of personal preferences, recognizing that my way may not be the best way.

[silentreader]

Well, does a lack of uniformity create a culture that makes it harder for people to notice and speak up if something might be wrong? Can it lead to a culture that judges spirituality by standards different from the New Testament standard?

just my 2 cents, but to the first question I would say not as much as an enforced uniformity, and to the 2nd, it can but it seems less likely (because there are inherently less extrabiblical standards of uniformity) in my experience.

I had to reread that a few times, and if you mean what I think you mean than I probably agree with that.

[silentreader]

How does the church/individual need to handle personal convictions?

I'll give a few examples but I'm sure there are others...

Homeopathy being witchcraft some times we need to develop conviction - we do not expressly forbid homeopathy but in my opinion we should. I try to educate but also to be patient.

Defilement theory of D/R and reconciliation theory I am not familiar with the terms you use. I would suggest we should look to Mark 10 for our guidance on this and develop conviction.

Refusal to wear hats (primarily directed at old order/eastern) or mandating hats I have struggled some with this but there are always glib or convincing arguments that 1 Cor 11 does not apply to our hat.

Opaque caps

CCM (contemporary Christian music)

jewelry aka the wedding ring and or Gold wrist watches

Sunday school or not My personal experience with SS has been that too often the time would be better spent with teaching/preaching. I would suggest that if you are with a group that does not have SS and you are convicted,
they should, it might be better to move if you have that option.

Lord of the Rings, Narnia, Harry potter... Personally, I wish everyone had convictions against this type of "literature."


Thoughts?

The whole premise behind church is that we become a body of believers, ready to leave some things for the sake of unity in the body. Sometimes we need to develop conviction - sometimes it may be good to question our personal convictions. Sometimes it is possible to keep your convictions without upsetting the rest of the body.

A couple of thoughts, perhaps not fully formed.
In the case of Sunday School, "The time would be better spent teaching/preaching". My circle of experience is of course fairly limited, but unfortunately, I think that is true. In some circles, including our own, sometimes Sunday School is more of an opinion forum than a time of rich learning. There are several reasons for that which I don't wish to get into.

The other thing is the bolded sentence above which troubles me somewhat, and which may be part of our problem.
I believe there is some truth to the premise, but isn't it more accurate to say that we are/should be members of the Body of Christ, and as such we are ready to lay aside anything that we know does not please the Head, so that we can grow together in unity along with other members of the local expression of the Body, our home church?

[Hats Off]

Well, the premise behind the premise is as you state - no argument there.

[Neto]

Uniformity is utilitarian in nature. It makes the job easier. If everyone has to make their own standard, then who decides when someone is losing out on their separation? So we take Bible commands and try to decide on basic interpretations that are workable, then covenant to live by them. Most of our churches leave lots of room for variety within those interpretations. And not all expectations are necessarily written down.

I don't think any of us has a Bible verse ready for every expectation. For instance should a woman's sleeves come to the elbow, or below the elbow, or midway between elbow and wrist, or to the wrist? Got a Bible verse to answer that? But if a church decides on below the elbow and one family insists on to the elbow, there is a different problem than just the modesty issue.

Is it wrong for a group to have such expectations? I don't think so. We need to realize that the two inch difference between above the elbow or below isn't a matter of being saved or lost. It is a matter of having a guideline that God's people feel comfortable with. Of course if we become proud that we are such a good example to the congregation by making our sleeves several inches longer than expected, then we have a different problem. Or if we decide that the brotherhood has no business in telling me my sleeves are two inches too short, that too is indicative of a problem. I know that some of you will view this illustration of being legalistic. But what tends to happen is that all of a sudden, someone has sleeves halfway between the elbow and shoulder when the guideline said below the elbow. Or it becomes almost sleeveless.

I'd be glad to be part of a group that genuinely didn't need such standards. But I've never seen one that tried it and survived. Somehow, most churches fail to ingrain practical conviction into their members.

How well is this working for us? Are we seeing a growth in Christian unity because of this legislated uniformity?

No. You know we haven't. Nor has the leadership oriented approach that RZehr described helped, in the long run. I was part of that for forty years or so. It might have looked a little better outwardly, but it didn't make for better Christians. I'd be happy for any further thoughts from you and RZehr and a few others. But maybe we should spin off a separate thread for it, rather than fill this one. I'd suggest that we start with people who are members in moderate conservative groups or more conservative.

I thought Lester's phrase which I set in bold was the key to this - it is not a legislated uniformity, but a covenanted uniformity. (I do realize, however, that for the next generation it feels like it's legislated, and in a sense they do not have much of a choice, at least initially.)

[Josh]

Part of the issue here is the “next generation” problem. Their conviction is try to make their parents happy, so they wear certain cuts of clothing to make their parents happy, which is an odd state of affairs indeed.