God Alone

General Christian Theology
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Bootstrap
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God Alone

Post by Bootstrap »

GaryK wrote:Let me ask a very simple question.

Do you believe that God alone controls the weather as you stated earlier?
I'm starting a separate thread on this - what do we mean by "God alone" when we say things like "place your trust in God alone" or "God alone can save"? Your question seems to imply that if "God alone" controls the weather, then human beings can have no influence on it at all.

I don't think it means that I can't trust my wife or my pastor, but I do think it means that my trust in any human being is only partial and I can trust God completely. I don't think it means that a fireman can't save me from a fire or a lifeguard can't save me from drowning, but I do think it means that God's salvation goes way beyond anything that a human being can do. When we say that God is all-powerful, I don't think that means that human beings have no power at all, I think it means that God's power is at a completely different level than what we can ask or imagine.

How do you see this? (I'm asking this question for anyone, not just Gary.)
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cmbl
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Re: God Alone

Post by cmbl »

This is a good question. Much of American Christian theology is heavily influenced by the solae of the Protestant (Magisterial) reformers. Because I distance myself from that theology, I rarely use the word "alone" to discuss religion.
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Re: God Alone

Post by PeterG »

Human beings make choices and perform actions that have consequences, but God alone is sovereign.
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GaryK
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Re: God Alone

Post by GaryK »

Bootstrap wrote:
GaryK wrote:Let me ask a very simple question.

Do you believe that God alone controls the weather as you stated earlier?
I'm starting a separate thread on this - what do we mean by "God alone" when we say things like "place your trust in God alone" or "God alone can save"? Your question seems to imply that if "God alone" controls the weather, then human beings can have no influence on it at all.

I don't think it means that I can't trust my wife or my pastor, but I do think it means that my trust in any human being is only partial and I can trust God completely. I don't think it means that a fireman can't save me from a fire or a lifeguard can't save me from drowning, but I do think it means that God's salvation goes way beyond anything that a human being can do. When we say that God is all-powerful, I don't think that means that human beings have no power at all, I think it means that God's power is at a completely different level than what we can ask or imagine.

How do you see this? (I'm asking this question for anyone, not just Gary.)
This question was asked specifically about the climate changing. If God alone or only God can change the climate then how is it possible for man to change it? The law of non-contradiction applies here. It seems to me you are making the word 'alone' or 'only' relative.
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Re: God Alone

Post by Bootstrap »

GaryK wrote:This question was asked specifically about the climate changing. If God alone or only God can change the climate then how is it possible for man to change it? The law of non-contradiction applies here. It seems to me you are making the word 'alone' or 'only' relative.
I don't think "God alone" has a different meaning for climate change than it does for other subjects. That's why I suggested we reflect on how we normally use the word. I was using the phrase the same way I use it in other phrases like it, as I discussed above. I think a lot of people do use the phrase that way.

But if it's clearer, here's my opinion without using that 'alone' word. Only God is God. His ways are higher than ours, his power is greater than ours, he is far beyond what we can ask or imagine. But mankind is made in God's image, and there are things that humans can know, do, and influence. I used this example before:
Bootstrap wrote:Consider Genesis 2:
The Lord God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to work it and keep it.
Why would God need Adam to work the garden of Eden and keep it? Certainly God was capable of doing that on his own! Still, I suspect there would have been consequences if Adam had not done these things. And certainly God could have prevented Adam and Eve from the forbidden fruit, but he did not.

The actions of human beings do have consequences. The Bible is clear about that. It's not because God is dependent on us.
Do you agree with that? Is there any biblical principle that says that mankind cannot influence the environment? If so, where can I find it? Does the principle cover DDT, atomic bombs, chemical warfare, and pollution too?
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GaryK
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Re: God Alone

Post by GaryK »

Bootstrap wrote:
GaryK wrote:This question was asked specifically about the climate changing. If God alone or only God can change the climate then how is it possible for man to change it? The law of non-contradiction applies here. It seems to me you are making the word 'alone' or 'only' relative.
I don't think "God alone" has a different meaning for climate change than it does for other subjects. That's why I suggested we reflect on how we normally use the word. I was using the phrase the same way I use it in other phrases like it, as I discussed above. I think a lot of people do use the phrase that way.

But if it's clearer, here's my opinion without using that 'alone' word. Only God is God. His ways are higher than ours, his power is greater than ours, he is far beyond what we can ask or imagine. But mankind is made in God's image, and there are things that humans can know, do, and influence. I used this example before:
Bootstrap wrote:Consider Genesis 2:
The Lord God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to work it and keep it.
Why would God need Adam to work the garden of Eden and keep it? Certainly God was capable of doing that on his own! Still, I suspect there would have been consequences if Adam had not done these things. And certainly God could have prevented Adam and Eve from the forbidden fruit, but he did not.

The actions of human beings do have consequences. The Bible is clear about that. It's not because God is dependent on us.
Do you agree with that? Is there any biblical principle that says that mankind cannot influence the environment? If so, where can I find it?
Now you are using the word environment. I suppose if you would ask Job if man can change the climate he would answer with a resounding NO. I think God made that pretty clear to Job.
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Re: God Alone

Post by Bootstrap »

GaryK wrote:Now you are using the word environment. I suppose if you would ask Job if man can change the climate he would answer with a resounding NO. I think God made that pretty clear to Job.
I assume you are talking about the dialogue that starts with chapter 38 and continues to the end of the book. I love that book, and to me that part seems to be saying that God is God and we are not. God is responding to Job's demand that God explain why he allowed Job to suffer.

At the end, Job says this:
Job wrote:“I know that you can do all things,
and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted.
‘Who is this that hides counsel without knowledge?’
Therefore I have uttered what I did not understand,
things too wonderful for me, which I did not know.
‘Hear, and I will speak;
I will question you, and you make it known to me.’
I had heard of you by the hearing of the ear,
but now my eye sees you;
therefore I despise myself,
and repent in dust and ashes.”
I don't see anything in those chapters that says that nothing we do can have consequences for the climate or environment or whatever word you prefer, though. God is God, and we are not, but our actions still have consequences. Is there a particular passage in Job that I'm missing?

Here's one verse from chapter 38:
Who has put wisdom in the inward parts
or given understanding to the mind?
So wisdom and understanding are not entirely beyond human beings, we just need to know who gave them to us and use them appropriately.

You may see things differently, and that's fine. But I don't yet see where my understanding contradicts the Bible as a whole or this part of Job.
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Sudsy
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Re: God Alone

Post by Sudsy »

PeterG wrote:Human beings make choices and perform actions that have consequences, but God alone is sovereign.
I go along with what PeterG said here.

The way I look at it (which may differ somewhat from PeterG) is that God sovereignly decided to risk giving man the freedom to make choices. This allows man to freely love God but also to do all kinds of things that bring about harm. To get man on the right track to eliminating man's harmful choices, man needs a Saviour. Someone to show him what will not bring harm. And that is why we are to point people to the Saviour from the harm man can create. Man can do things to reduce some of the harm he creates but it seems when he attempts to fix one thing he often messes up another. Although man has sovereignly been given the ability to chose, God also has His limits on the damage man can do. Just like with Job, God allowed so much testing but would not allow Job's life to be taken.

My belief is that any worry we have about the damage man can do is not trusting God. He says to cast all our cares upon Him and to not be anxious over anything. Man does not decide what happens to this planet unless God allows his decisions to destroy it and then that still would be as God permits according to His will to allow it.
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GaryK
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Re: God Alone

Post by GaryK »

Bootstrap wrote:
GaryK wrote:Now you are using the word environment. I suppose if you would ask Job if man can change the climate he would answer with a resounding NO. I think God made that pretty clear to Job.
I assume you are talking about the dialogue that starts with chapter 38 and continues to the end of the book. I love that book, and to me that part seems to be saying that God is God and we are not. God is responding to Job's demand that God explain why he allowed Job to suffer.

At the end, Job says this:
Job wrote:“I know that you can do all things,
and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted.
‘Who is this that hides counsel without knowledge?’
Therefore I have uttered what I did not understand,
things too wonderful for me, which I did not know.
‘Hear, and I will speak;
I will question you, and you make it known to me.’
I had heard of you by the hearing of the ear,
but now my eye sees you;
therefore I despise myself,
and repent in dust and ashes.”
I don't see anything in those chapters that says that nothing we do can have consequences for the climate or environment or whatever word you prefer, though. God is God, and we are not, but our actions still have consequences. Is there a particular passage in Job that I'm missing?

Here's one verse from chapter 38:
Who has put wisdom in the inward parts
or given understanding to the mind?
So wisdom and understanding are not entirely beyond human beings, we just need to know who gave them to us and use them appropriately.

You may see things differently, and that's fine. But I don't yet see where my understanding contradicts the Bible as a whole or this part of Job.
And in the 2 verses just ahead of that one God is asking Job "34 Can you lift up your voice to the clouds, That an abundance of water may cover you? 35 Can you send out lightnings, that they may go, And say to you, 'Here we are!'?

Edited to add: And the 2 verses right after the one you quoted ask more questions about the climate/weather. "37 Who can number the clouds by wisdom? Or who can pour out the bottles of heaven, 38 When the dust hardens in clumps, And the clods cling together?

I wonder how mainstream scientists would answer these questions God is asking?
Last edited by GaryK on Sat Jan 27, 2018 4:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: God Alone

Post by Bootstrap »

GaryK wrote:And in the 2 verses just ahead of that one God is asking Job "34 Can you lift up your voice to the clouds, That an abundance of water may cover you? 35 Can you send out lightnings, that they may go, And say to you, 'Here we are!'?
OK, I'm pretty sure I can't do that (I didn't even bother trying).

But I'm also pretty sure that we could decimate the entire planet with nuclear weapons. I remember debates where people pointed out we had enough nuclear weapons to destroy the planet, and any more weapons would just "bounce the rubble". That's within the power of man, and I don't think that contradicts what God said.

Climate change is a lot less drastic and scary than that. We do seem to have the power to change things on this planet.
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