Celebrity pastors & megachurches bottom out

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John 15:19
King James Bible
If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

According to this passage there is a certain expectation of the world rejecting Christians.

True. And we should not be shocked or surprised that the world does not grasp Christianity.

Still, I don't think "the world" thought that Jesus was judgmental or hypocritical. A lot of them probably DID think he was out of touch with reality. I would rather be criticized for being like Jesus.

Christians have always been recognized doing good deeds. There are many organizations doing good deeds that are not affiliated with Christianity. If Scripture indicates they love darkness more than light because their deeds are evil, then those who see the light but prefer evil will not come to the light of Christ just because they witness good deeds.

That quote was directed to a Pharisee and teacher of the law. Here it is in context:

Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”

“How can this be?” Nicodemus asked.

“You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, “and do you not understand these things? Very truly I tell you, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony. I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things? No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man. Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.”

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.

Jesus is saying that Nicodemus needs to repent and turn his life around. This is not just about people we think of as "worldly sinners". Religious people can be worldly sinners too, in their own ways.

Really, I think all of us should be asking God, regularly, to reveal where we are being hypocritical or judgmental in the wrong ways. As a basic spiritual discipline. And where we are living in denial.

He also said "If they hated Me they will hate you."

That's from John 15, when Jesus is on his way to the cross. So who hated Jesus and called for him to be crucified? Wasn't it the religious leaders?

18 “If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first. 19 If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you. 20 Remember what I told you: ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted me, they will persecute you also. If they obeyed my teaching, they will obey yours also. 21 They will treat you this way because of my name, for they do not know the one who sent me. 22 If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin; but now they have no excuse for their sin. 23 Whoever hates me hates my Father as well. 24 If I had not done among them the works no one else did, they would not be guilty of sin. As it is, they have seen, and yet they have hated both me and my Father. 25 But this is to fulfill what is written in their Law: ‘They hated me without reason.’

Who do we see coming to Jesus and obeying his teaching in the NT? Jesus and the Pharisees attracted very different kinds of followers. I think that is still true today.

[Sudsy]

What I notice is that scripture also says if we shine the light we have through good deeds that some will be drawn to that light. When I volunteered to help the Salvation Army with kettle collections at Christmas time, I never once heard criticism of the SA but often heard from war veterans and other people of their good deeds. We also gave out their magazine called 'The War Cry' and they respectfully received them. The Gospel message and conversion stories were there to read.

I believe when we are truly shining our light that there will be those that are drawn to this light but I think religion often hides it under a bushel. Those who rejected the light in Jesus time on earth were mainly religious people who were not big into doing good deeds but rather big on attracting attention to themselves by their religious practises.

John 15:19
King James Bible
If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

According to this passage there is a certain expectation of the world rejecting Christians. Christians have always been recognized doing good deeds. There are many organizations doing good deeds that are not affiliated with Christianity. If Scripture indicates they love darkness more than light because their deeds are evil, then those who see the light but prefer evil will not come to the light of Christ just because they witness good deeds. Jesus was perfect in every way but it was not just religious that rejected Him. He also said "If they hated Me they will hate you." "They" would include all kinds of people. Thus the broad and narrow way.

Actually, these days what Im seeing on social media is a live and admiration for Amish from outsiders and have read a lot of comments saying they are the only real Christians

Good deeds in and of themselves is not the drawing to Jesus but rather how these good deeds are done can point people to Jesus or they can just point people to ourselves and our righteous acts as was the case of the Pharisees. Many Christians are not involved in good deeds themselves other than giving some money to help those Christians who are involved in good deeds. Others do show up to events put on and considered as good deeds but the attention for these is still on themselves. Although I think the SA leads the way in good deeds and requiring their group to be involved, the lack of persecution they receive causes me to be suspect if God is getting the attention or not.

Since Jesus said there will be those who hate us as they hated Him, if we are not being hated by anyone or few people, then what does this say about how much we are like Him ? Or perhaps they hate us if we have a hateful attitude toward them for their sinning instead of a true concern for their souls. Jesus was hated but He was also loved by others. I think some Christians may think their godliness hinges on their being hated and forget Jesus was also loved by those who received Him, example Zacchaeus.

We should also be careful about being admired by outsiders especially their views of what makes for a real Christ follower. I really doubt Jesus would join the Amish in their pactises of isolation from the unsaved. He was very much involved with those He came to save and at the same time was separate from worldliness. Seems to me Christian groups that major on sanctification often tend towards isolation. That was not Jesus practise.

[RZehr]

I can imagine that accusations of hypocrisy and “judging” were frequently and vehemently leveled at Jesus by the Pharisees.

[Bootstrap]

I can imagine that accusations of hypocrisy and “judging” were frequently and vehemently leveled at Jesus by the Pharisees.

Can you find some examples? I can't remember any offhand.

They criticized him for associating with sinners, not observing certain Jewish traditions, and allegedly violating the Sabbath. But hypocrisy and judging? I can't remember that. But I could easily be wrong.

[RZehr]

I can imagine that accusations of hypocrisy and “judging” were frequently and vehemently leveled at Jesus by the Pharisees.

Can you find some examples? I can't remember any offhand.

They criticized him for associating with sinners, not observing certain Jewish traditions, and allegedly violating the Sabbath. But hypocrisy and judging? I can't remember that. But I could easily be wrong.

Those don’t have the aroma of hypocrisy to you?

[Bootstrap]

I can imagine that accusations of hypocrisy and “judging” were frequently and vehemently leveled at Jesus by the Pharisees.

Can you find some examples? I can't remember any offhand.

They criticized him for associating with sinners, not observing certain Jewish traditions, and allegedly violating the Sabbath. But hypocrisy and judging? I can't remember that. But I could easily be wrong.

Those don’t have the aroma of hypocrisy to you?

They are entirely consistent with the teachings of Jesus. He practiced what he preached. And I think they knew that. So I don't think it was hypocrisy, it was a very clear disagreement about what God calls us to.

[Soloist]

Generally the person crying hypocrisy has more themselves which I think is the point.

[Bootstrap]

It seems like we might be headed in the direction of there being less bench warmers/cultural Christians and perhaps more sincere seekers. Cultural Christians are either adopting a hedonistic worldview or campaigning for religious rights and religious politics.

Meanwhile sincere seekers are getting weary of all of that, are avoiding the hoopla of both, and heading in the direction of something more authentic.

I think Jesus approves.

[RZehr]

Can you find some examples? I can't remember any offhand.

They criticized him for associating with sinners, not observing certain Jewish traditions, and allegedly violating the Sabbath. But hypocrisy and judging? I can't remember that. But I could easily be wrong.

Those don’t have the aroma of hypocrisy to you?

They are entirely consistent with the teachings of Jesus. He practiced what he preached. And I think they knew that. So I don't think it was hypocrisy, it was a very clear disagreement about what God calls us to.

Did you catch the difference between accusations, and reality & truth?
Do you think that the Pharisees were willing to kill him, but they drew a line at falsely accusing him of these specific things? I don’t.

[Bootstrap]

Did you catch the difference between accusations, and reality & truth?
Do you think that the Pharisees were willing to kill him, but they drew a line at falsely accusing him of these specific things? I don’t.

Ah, I missed that. Thanks for clarifying.

I agree, they were happy to falsely accuse Jesus in order to get him killed and out of the way.