If conservative Anabaptist was "right", why are there virtually no churches in major cities?

[ken_sylvania]

By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have many churches in big cities....

[Ernie]

Chris has been very dismissive of the challenges that conservative Anabaptists have in planting churches in cities. And he is not reckoning with the fact that conservative Anabaptists will never have big numbers like other denominations. (They may be able to be more effective than they are presently if they go through a metamorphosis, but even if they do, most people who are seeking the Lord will not choose the conservative Anabaptist package.)

But he is correct that God uses those who make themselves available, and conservative Anabaptists don't make themselves very available in cities. (or anywhere else for that matter. yes, they have moved to most of the 50 states, but the majority are not moving anywhere outside of their home communities and this is to our shame.)

Various places in the New Testament, Jesus and other New Testament writers point out people who are doing something noteworthy as a way of calling others to consider them and do like them. I don't have any problem with Chris doing this, per say. Maybe somebody reading MN now or in the future will consider moving to a city as a result of this thread.

[Josh]

Chris,

Pew Research has the data on EO and RCC attendance (and decline) if you are interested.

I offered to connect you with other like minded Anabaptists who want live in the city and do ministry there. You can PM me and I’ll put you in touch.

[Chris]

Chris, you are being argumentative and it’s to no end as you dismiss anything anyone says.
What is your goal here? You have repeatedly said the same thing and acted like no one cares or even has made an attempt to answer you.
Are you ecumenical? It sounds like you are by favoring all these groups with serious problems following Jesus and you dismiss any of them by attacking the one issue you see. Pull the log out of your eyes first.

I am very much paying attention to the answers and am not dismissing them.

Most of the answers have centered around a number of "excuses".

For example:
1) If we go into the city my children will be corrupted.

I'm sorry, this is not biblical nor correct. This is an excuse and one Anabaptists should be ashamed of. I'm glad the church of Corinthians and of the Ephesians (etc.) did not believe the same way.

We must stop making excuses.

There is way more than one issue (we all know this).... But that's a different thread.

If we are to spread the Kingdom of God, we must do it. At the same time the attacks are flying at churches that are imperfect, but yet have real skin involved in the service of Christ.

[Chris]

By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have many churches in big cities....

"If you love me keep my commandments"

"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:"

[Chris]

Chris,

Pew Research has the data on EO and RCC attendance (and decline) if you are interested.

I offered to connect you with other like minded Anabaptists who want live in the city and do ministry there. You can PM me and I’ll put you in touch.

Sure PM me this. However, I will note, Pew Research is U.S. public opinion, not global. Look for the attendance in Greece as well to be fair, I think you'll be surprised. Even in Athens.

[Chris]

Chris has been very dismissive of the challenges that conservative Anabaptists have in planting churches in cities. And he is not reckoning with the fact that conservative Anabaptists will never have big numbers like other denominations. (They may be able to be more effective than they are presently if they go through a metamorphosis, but even if they do, most people who are seeking the Lord will not choose the conservative Anabaptist package.)

But he is correct that God uses those who make themselves available, and conservative Anabaptists don't make themselves very available in cities. (or anywhere else for that matter. yes, they have moved to most of the 50 states, but the majority are not moving anywhere outside of their home communities and this is to our shame.)

Various places in the New Testament, Jesus and other New Testament writers point out people who are doing something noteworthy as a way of calling others to consider them and do like them. I don't have any problem with Chris doing this, per say. Maybe somebody reading MN now or in the future will consider moving to a city as a result of this thread.

You are right, and I hope that I'm conveying both kindly yet sternly around excuses. My hope is there will be a metamorphosis and a complete heart change within the Anabaptist faith as a whole about being in cities. It hurts and it's painful to see. I believe we have so much to offer, not just us as a people, but to bring Jesus Christ to others. To be able to teach others the real value of a heart conversion, holiness in life, sanctity of marriage, and not compromising the gospel for any reason.

Christians are the "Stewards of the mysteries of God". We are supposed to bring to others the teachings of Jesus Christ. This is about eternal salvation of others, and how we are stewards of the free gift given to us.

[Ken]

You are right, and I hope that I'm conveying both kindly yet sternly around excuses. My hope is there will be a metamorphosis and a complete heart change within the Anabaptist faith as a whole about being in cities. It hurts and it's painful to see. I believe we have so much to offer, not just us as a people, but to bring Jesus Christ to others. To be able to teach others the real value of a heart conversion, holiness in life, sanctity of marriage, and not compromising the gospel for any reason.

I wouldn't count on that happening anytime soon for a whole lot of reasons.

There will, of course, be the occasional "mission" or church planting in urban areas. But it would take a wholesale population migration to the cities on the scale of other past migrations such as from Ukraine to the Great Plains, or the westward migration to actually have any meaningful effect. And I just don't see that happening. Most CA folks are pretty set in their communities. And when they leave to start new communities they tend to want to replicate what they are leaving behind. Which is rural life. The reason you see lots of Catholic churches in urban areas is mass migration by whole populations in the order of millions. Not Catholic "missions" to the cities. For example, greater Chicago was growing by about 100,000 people per year in the early 1900s and the bulk of that growth was Catholic and Lutheran immigrants from Germany, Poland, Ireland, and Italy. When you have 5,000 or 10,000 new immigrants arriving per month and settling into ethnic neighborhoods you can build a LOT of churches.

The other reason I don't really see it happening, is because I think rural economies are more conducive to making a living without higher education and more conducive to supporting a family on one income. That is harder to do in the cities where higher cost of living makes that more difficult. Not saying it can't be done. People do it. But the cost of living in a lot of cities is such that you just about need two professional incomes to buy a house and get settled and not be constantly living on the edge so to speak financially.

[Josh]

For example:
1) If we go into the city my children will be corrupted.

I'm sorry, this is not biblical nor correct. This is an excuse and one Anabaptists should be ashamed of. I'm glad the church of Corinthians and of the Ephesians (etc.) did not believe the same way.

We must stop making excuses.

Well, that’s exactly what happened to my wife’s cousins and the brothers and sisters of one of the brethren in my local church. They were part of a congregation that was in a city (Oroville, CA) and things did not go well.

You keep saying “this is not correct” even though there are numerous examples of attempts at a church in a city failing and children being corrupted.

Perhaps you could now move your family and try to reach these precious souls that are now lost? Two are single moms, one is a police officer, etc. - not typical outcomes for conservative Anabaptists.

My church now does city missions much more carefully. As I have said several times, we do have churches in or near most major cities. Nearly all converts who join choose to go live in a rural area and not stay in the city. The church is now careful to send experienced, mature couples to these locations or young couples without children.

[Josh]

Chris,

Pew Research has the data on EO and RCC attendance (and decline) if you are interested.

I offered to connect you with other like minded Anabaptists who want live in the city and do ministry there. You can PM me and I’ll put you in touch.

Sure PM me this. However, I will note, Pew Research is U.S. public opinion, not global. Look for the attendance in Greece as well to be fair, I think you'll be surprised. Even in Athens.

Send me a PM with your phone number and I’ll put you in touch. If I don’t hear from you, I will assume you aren’t interested in city missions and ministry.

I am not an expert on church matters globally, but I can assure you church attendance in Europe is abysmal; Serbia which is E.O. averages attendance as poor as 2 per church. Many people identify as both EO and atheist. Greece is not evidence of mission activity. It is a highly ethnic church - nothing against that but that’s the same situation as plain Anabaptists.