Modern Day Pharisees

[GaryK]

But that's not what I believe. I think you are working hard to frame this that way, turning it into a fight. Intentionally or unintentionally, I can't tell. And I would like you to stop. Please.

If you don't believe that, then stop mentioning how we post on MN. You have mentioned it numerous times and I find it difficult to understand how that has nothing to do with you bringing up the issue in the first place.

There's a lot of distance between (1) "at the heart of what you are attempting to get across to us" and (2) "nothing to do with". Perhaps I can suggest (3) "something to do with"?

And I thought the best way to approach this is not to pick apart people's past posts, attack specific people or groups, etc., but to focus on what Scripture says. I have almost never seen people come to understand each other better by going back and trying to figure out who had misunderstood whose posts exactly how, especially when they disagree. That almost always leads to nothing but a fight that distracts entirely from whatever we are trying to discuss.

I'm curious what your takeaway is from the pushback you've received in this thread on Modern Day Pharisees.

Something I observed is that nearly all of the pushback came from those in conservative Anabaptist settings and I believe it came because of you not really understanding conservative Anabaptist thinking on worldliness and sin. The Phariseeism and works based salvation labels are not foreign to us. I'm not suggesting that they have never been warranted, but I would suggest that by far the majority of times they haven't been.

[Josh]

We cAs are a bit guilty of a few things actually (as are many other Protestants):

- Accusing groups less worldly than we are of “Phariseeism”.
- Accusing these groups of works based salvation.
- Accusing Catholics of works based salvation. (This is such an extreme misunderstanding of Catholic soteriology that I’m not even sure where to start.)
- Warmly accepting into our midst people from more conservative groups that claim they left that group because it teaches works based salvation.

We then are mystified when people leave one of our groups, go to a more worldly church group, and claim that our group believes in works based salvation. We are hurt when they make examples of us being Pharisees, mocking our various standards and disciplines and highlighting any inconsistencies they may find.

I suggest we all just stop this. Jesus never criticised the Pharisees because they obeyed the law too much. He criticised them because they didn’t obey some of God’s laws.

[ken_sylvania]

I suggest we all just stop this. Jesus never criticised the Pharisees because they obeyed the law too much. He criticised them because they didn’t obey some of God’s laws.

[Bootstrap]

And I thought the best way to approach this is not to pick apart people's past posts, attack specific people or groups, etc., but to focus on what Scripture says. I have almost never seen people come to understand each other better by going back and trying to figure out who had misunderstood whose posts exactly how, especially when they disagree. That almost always leads to nothing but a fight that distracts entirely from whatever we are trying to discuss.

That’s the very point. You keep doing exactly what you say you don’t want to do. You drop the names but are doing it nevertheless.

I agree that I'm not managing to do what I want.

I really do want to focus on Scripture.

I don't think I understand all the dynamics of what is going on. The following posts may be helpful ...

[Bootstrap]

I'm curious what your takeaway is from the pushback you've received in this thread on Modern Day Pharisees.

Something I observed is that nearly all of the pushback came from those in conservative Anabaptist settings and I believe it came because of you not really understanding conservative Anabaptist thinking on worldliness and sin. The Phariseeism and works based salvation labels are not foreign to us. I'm not suggesting that they have never been warranted, but I would suggest that by far the majority of times they haven't been.

Yes, I think something is going on that I don't understand, and it's been clear that most of the pushback is coming from conservative Anabaptists. Let me be very explicit: I am not saying that conservative Anabaptists are Pharisees.

And I'm pretty sure that you're right that I don't really grasp conservative Anabaptist thinking on worldliness and sin.

The concept of Pharisees does seem to be really, really sensitive.

[Bootstrap]

Jesus never criticised the Pharisees because they obeyed the law too much. He criticised them because they didn’t obey some of God’s laws.

I absolutely agree with this. Period.

As Gary points out, I don't really grasp conservative Anabaptist thinking on worldliness and sin. I'm not sure how to relate "standards" to "God's laws" - in my context, we talk about "simple obedience to Scripture", we do not talk about standards. It's a foreign concept to me.

• Is it possible for a person to follow very strict standards but still fall short on God's laws?
• Is it possible for someone who follows Gods laws to still fall short on standards?
• Is a group with stricter standards following God's laws better than a group with less strict standards?
• Are the people who follow the same standards equally holy?
• Are there standards for things like gossip and judgmentalism and the other kinds of sins that Pharisees tended to do?

P.S. - could we move this line of discussion to another thread with a new title so that it does not imply that conservative Anabaptists are Pharisees?

[temporal1]

.. in all my days i never anticipated witnssing GaryK being accused of fighting. “that is a weird.”
i expect it’s an unusual life experience for him. first, in another thread, not reading well, then fighting.

they say, “if you live long enough, you’re liable to see anything.”

[silentreader]

Jesus never criticised the Pharisees because they obeyed the law too much. He criticised them because they didn’t obey some of God’s laws.

Would it be fair to say that the Pharisees did not see themselves as not obeying some of God's laws directly because they had come up with some imaginative workarounds that allowed them to more or less seem to obey the letter but miss out completely on the spirit of the law?


I absolutely agree with this. Period.

As Gary points out, I don't really grasp conservative Anabaptist thinking on worldliness and sin. I'm not sure how to relate "standards" to "God's laws" - in my context, we talk about "simple obedience to Scripture", we do not talk about standards. It's a foreign concept to me.

• Is it possible for a person to follow very strict standards but still fall short on God's laws?
• Is it possible for someone who follows Gods laws to still fall short on standards?
• Is a group with stricter standards following God's laws better than a group with less strict standards?
• Are the people who follow the same standards equally holy?
• Are there standards for things like gossip and judgmentalism and the other kinds of sins that Pharisees tended to do?

Here, I think, is where some of the misunderstandings and antagonism arise.
The Pharisees had, I believe, in our language come up with some "practical applications" defining how certain laws were to be lived out. The question arises, what is the possible perceived parallel between the Pharisees' applications that were based on OT Scripture and conservative Anabaptist "standards" based on NT Scripture?

P.S. - could we move this line of discussion to another thread with a new title so that it does not imply that conservative Anabaptists are Pharisees?

[Valerie]

An example to me is when we act like a religious snob we are acting like the Pharisees that Jesus talked about. Text is Luke 18:9-14. A holier-than-thou attitude. Those 'who had great confidence in their own righteousness and scorned everyone else' (NLT verse 9).

And I mean 'we' not anyone specifically.

I hear this a lot from people who don't go to church- when they recognize there are people that are really wanting to live their lives to please the Lord, they accuse them of being holier than thou. For example if you don't want to join in on a conversation that you know wouldn't please the lord, so you remain silent. Is that an example of being holier than now? Is deciding to wear clothes that you feel the more pleasing to the Lord and spending a lot of money on fashion and more revealing clothing with UBC as trying to convey a holier than thou attitude instead of that your relationship with the Lord has perhaps brought you to a point where you realized your desire to please him is more important than pleasing those in the world? Would that be an example of coming across as holier than now?

[Valerie]

Interesting.

I find these scriptures challenging. Precisely because practicing Christlike holiness and love is hard with real people - especially since I am a real person myself. I'm pretty sure that (1) I have not yet mastered what the Bible teaches on this subject and (2) I have a lot to learn about applying it in my own life.

I invited you to share before but you didn’t seem interested in sharing your own experience.

On the one side:

I think that people are distorting Scripture with all kinds of fancy arguments to justify gay marriage. I don't think we can ditch what the Bible teaches about gay sex or about creation as male and female without basically abandoning Scripture as a reliable guide for sexual ethics entirely. Those Scriptures are clear. I suspect the denomination I am in will have a significant split in the coming year over this issue. There are people who are angry at me for clearly expressing what Scripture teaches.

On the other side:

The LGBTQ people in my broader family have experienced real hate and contempt at times. I have seen it, and I cannot call it anything else. So have some LGBTQ people in my denomination. Sometimes from "fine religious" people. So when LGBTQ people say they have experienced these things, I believe them. I listen. I care. Sometimes they acknowledge that, telling me that I'm not a hater like some other people, and they sense that I love them. Sometimes they tell me that I can't really love them unless I accept "who they really are". Sometimes they kind of tell me both. They are confused that I seem to care but don't agree with them.

About a year ago:

When I gave a sermon on the woman caught in adultery, there was a young guest in the church who later confided to me, in confidentiality, that she is lesbian, and she felt safe telling me that. She asked if our church would welcome her. I told her we would welcome her, and that I think the love in our church is real, but we might not agree with her. About a month later, she found another church that agreed with her and left. I grieve about that kind of thing. I wish I knew how to do better.

I think it can work both ways though and that is the "push" of the LGBTQ community to parade it and when the term "gay pride" is associated with the lifestyle, how would Jesus feel about this?

Also, i have listened to former gays testimonies that encourage us to not be so passive about the sin. It seems to me when people spend time around Jesus it did not take them long to either want to repent of their sin and follow him, or avoid him because he exposed their darkness.