Modern day Israel

[Neto]

Among my closest friends in our current congregation there is quite a bit of difference of opinion regarding the special place of Israel in God's over-all plan, today, or at any time in the future.

That said (and I wouldn't call any of this "divisive" in my experience), my personal opinion has been at least since the early to mid 70's that the nation of Israel that was established in 1948 is NOT a fulfillment of Scripture. (It is interesting to note that the most conservative Jews opposed that development, believing that that prophecy belonged in the messianic age.) And there was a fever pitch of discussion and expectation based on that idea in Evangelical circles during that time.

But I do not believe that God no longer has a special plan for the people of Israel. He states that it is an everlasting covenant he made with them, and that despite their rejection, they will return to him. (There are also, however, prophecies about Egypt turning to God as well, and various other ethnic peoples who were totally pagan in their religious life.) Jesus tells his disciples that he has other sheep, sheep of a different fold, and that he will BRING them in, so that there will be one fold. Since his point of reference was the "fold of Israel" it seems to me that he meant that he would bring these other "sheep" into the fold of Israel. So I do not believe that "the Church replaced Israel". Furthermore, the word translated as 'congregation' in the OT is translated as eklasia in the LXX, the same word translated from the Greek NT as 'church' in our English versions. In Evangelical circles (like at the Bible college I attended) a common question is "When did the church began", or When was it established. Most will say that this took place at Pentecost. I became convinced (even earlier, or at least by around that same time - college years) that the "assembly" spoken of in the NT is the same as the "congregation of God" in the OT. It is the gathering of believers, whether before, or after, the earthly lifetime of the Christ of God.

As to the current nation of Israel? I expect it to be destroyed before the return of Christ. (Yeah, I know that some here think that this has already occurred, but we are talking opinions here, right? So here's mine.)

[RZehr]

There are many things that are dividing the church at Large. My feeling is that it is causing unbelievers to assume that we really don't know truth because we can't even agree with one another.

There are Messianic Jews today that will teach that Israel becoming a nation again is fulfillment of prophecies for example Ezekiel 36, just for one. I know the Orthodox Church believes that that was a fulfillment that spiritual Israel fulfilled, that the church became the Israel of God as in Galatians 6:16. And that every reference in the New testament regarding the elect of God was pertaining to Jews or gentiles that became Born again believers.

Where are Anabaptist at with this in this present day?
I'm personally struggling with this as I used to believe that Israel becoming a nation was according to prophecy that I agree now with the Orthodox that that didn't pertain to geographical modern day Israel but to the church that embraced Jesus Christ.

Any thoughts on this and where do you stand in your particular Anabaptist denominations?

I do not think that the nation state of Israel or the Jews have any special role left to fill. As far as I'm concerned Israel is no different than any other nation, and the Hebrews are no different than any other group of people.

I do have one smart and educated (Phd.) friend that is utterly convinced otherwise. And he has moved to Israel and has lived there for close to 20 years. When I discuss this topic with him, I can be swayed a bit. So I'm not determined that my understanding is correct. I am more bothered by the side effects that I see when people do believe Israel is special, and the way it effects their thinking in world events in ways that I think are not conducive to Biblical NT Christian living.

I don't think so now either but I was one of those that was really excited about Israel becoming a nation again assuming that was God doing that and fulfilling passages that I didn't realize we're being misapplied to that situation, when apparently those passages were already fulfilled. If you listen to a Messianic Jew, they most certainly see this as prophecy being fulfilled in the new nation of Israel.

I think the Orthodox Jews say the the nation of Israel today is somewhat illegitimate. I don’t remember all the reasons.

[gcdonner]

Romans 9-11 seems pretty clear in declaring that the Lord still has a role for Israel separate from the church. The church is the audience and they are being told that someday Israel will be saved. So, the Israel of the New Testament is not the church.

But who is "all Israel"?

Rom 9:6  Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 
7  Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 
8  That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. 

Rom 11:26  And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 
27  For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. 

Paul declares quite clearly in Galatians:

Gal 3:26  For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 
27  For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 
28  There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 
29  And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. 

There is NO promise to any ethnicity in scripture, or any "land" promise, since they were all wrapped up in Abraham and his "seed", which is Christ. Abraham declared that he was a stranger and a pilgrim who looked for a city built by God. That is the New Covenant in a nutshell, which was promised to the children of Israel under the OC, but can be obtained ONLY in Christ who plainly stated,

Joh 14:6  Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. 

[RZehr]

This is my understanding of how the ultra Orthodox Jews in Israel view the matter:
https://www.yahoo.com/news/landmark-cas ... 45029.html

According to Al-Jazeera, the student said he strongly opposes Zionism and Israel's existence, citing both political and religious arguments. The view strongly departs from Israel's political mainstream.

[Josh]

The circles I run in are very strongly zionistic for the most part. And premill...rapture etc.

When did this trend start? Is this a legacy from trends that hit the Lancaster Conference in the 1980s?

[Josh]

Thank you I know that there's so much going on there that I wasn't sure if the Anabaptists are moving towards we're so many evangelicals have embraced what's happening in Israel as being prophecy fulfilled.

I know of one Church in Holmes County "area" that recently renovated the outside of their Church to give it a look like it belonged in Israel I believe is what the goal was. I really like the preaching in that church as we have visited a handful of times, I know GC Donner was close with the main pastor there, I'm just not sure if they would be considered an Anabaptist Church that has embraced modern day Israel as a fulfillment of prophecy

Ah, my friend Wayne Weaver?
While I am not with the Anabaptist movement anymore, much of my theology is still in agreement, except the one of national Israel being a fulfillment of Biblical prophecy. According to Paul, there is only one way to be part of the people of God and that is to be "in Christ". They were cut off, but can be grafted back in, but only the same way that we were grafted in, through faith in Christ. As long as that country remains primarily atheistic, and rejecting of Jesus Christ (it is unlawful to evangelize there), they are outside of God's providence.

Speaking as an Anabaptist who used to live in the same area as Wayne Weaver, I can attest that most Anabaptists don't really consider Oasis Tabernacle to be "Anabaptist" but rather consider it to be a fringe movement. (Some of my information comes from my barber, whose son married a girl from those circles, and they now both attend there.) From what I understand, they are not conservative Anabaptist anymore, particularly in areas of abandoning nonresistance; abandoning the Christian woman's headcovering; and adopting the practicing of full-immersion baptism.

It is, however, a church that is essentially composed of entirely Swiss-background ethnic Anabaptist people.

[joshuabgood]

The circles I run in are very strongly zionistic for the most part. And premill...rapture etc.

When did this trend start? Is this a legacy from trends that hit the Lancaster Conference in the 1980s?

I feel like it goes back to the Brunk influence around Pre-millenialism and the creation of the modern Israeli state in 46.

[Josh]

The circles I run in are very strongly zionistic for the most part. And premill...rapture etc.

When did this trend start? Is this a legacy from trends that hit the Lancaster Conference in the 1980s?

I feel like it goes back to the Brunk influence around Pre-millenialism and the creation of the modern Israeli state in 46.

Oh. That would be a much older influence. I've always wondered why Easterns were so militantly pre-mil, when it's not a historic Anabaptist position at all.

[ohio jones]

Speaking as an Anabaptist who used to live in the same area as Wayne Weaver, I can attest that most Anabaptists don't really consider Oasis Tabernacle to be "Anabaptist" but rather consider it to be a fringe movement.

Not sure they are wearing tzitzit yet, but along with other churches in their network they seem to employ various Jewish accoutrements in their facilities and practices.

[Josh]

Speaking as an Anabaptist who used to live in the same area as Wayne Weaver, I can attest that most Anabaptists don't really consider Oasis Tabernacle to be "Anabaptist" but rather consider it to be a fringe movement.

Not sure they are wearing tzitzit yet, but along with other churches in their network they seem to employ various Jewish accoutrements in their facilities and practices.

Including attempting to haul marble and granite directly back from Israel for the cornerstone on their new building and smuggling out vials of water from the Jordan River. (It would seem the latter would be more amenable to affusion, but they are dedicated immersionists.)