Natural (God given) immunity is superior

[JohnHurt]

More accurately, it was tested on fetal stem cells.
Many modern medicines are starting to have this problem, including many monoclonal antibodies (Humira being a notable exception).

Even with a "test", they are still trying to benefit from the murder of a child. And so are we.

Rev 21:(8) But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

We take these injections because we are fearful of dying, so yes we are "fearful"...
We don't believe that God can really heal us, and so yes we are unbelieving...
And the unclean things we put inside us - they make us stink in God's eyes, so yes, we are "abominable"...
Like the parts of children that we murder and grind up to put into our injections or test our medicines, so yes, we are murderers and profit from murder...
And sorcery is "pharamkeus", or the mixing of drugs that we take, so yes, we really are sorcerers, or use the products of sorcery...
And man's "Science" and man's "Medicine" are the idols of this age that have replaced God Providence, so yes, we are idolaters too...
And then we lie to ourselves and others and say this medicine really works, when it doesn't work, so I guess you could say we are all liars too..

Well, at least we are not whoremongers. Or some of us, anyway.

But 7 wrong answers, and one "maybe", that is not really a passing grade.

Would you advocate for no use of modern medicine?

Does "modern medicine" really have to use dead babies for their "treatments"? Or is there another reason they do this?

[Josh]

Not all modern medicine involves fetal stem cells, but an alarming amount of new therapies do, particularly routine testing.

[Bootstrap]

There are two questions here.

If you have not had Covid, then "natural immunity" means "taking your chances with dying of Covid so that you can be immune to Covid in the future." That is clearly not better. Right now, the vast majority of people who are dying of Covid are unvaccinated. If you look at the percentage of Americans who are unvaccinated, that suggests this is not an effective method. If you have moral objections to vaccination, it's probably good to be careful.

If you have had Covid, and have verified that with a test so you're sure you didn't just have a cold or something, then your "natural immunity" may well be good. I've read a fair amount on this now, and I think the odds are that you have good immunity, but that varies and there are some things that are harder to study, which is why some suggest getting a vaccination anyway.

For those who have died of Covid, was "God given" death superior to vaccines? If a vaccine had the death rate associated with just taking your chances, it would never be approved.

[Josh]

There are two questions here.

If you have not had Covid, then "natural immunity" means "taking your chances with dying of Covid so that you can be immune to Covid in the future." That is clearly not better. Right now, the vast majority of people who are dying of Covid are unvaccinated. If you look at the percentage of Americans who are unvaccinated, that suggests this is not an effective method. If you have moral objections to vaccination, it's probably good to be careful.

If you have had Covid, and have verified that with a test so you're sure you didn't just have a cold or something, then your "natural immunity" may well be good. I've read a fair amount on this now, and I think the odds are that you have good immunity, but that varies and there are some things that are harder to study, which is why some suggest getting a vaccination anyway.

This is what the mainstream opinion outside of the U.S. is converging to. Most of Europe accepts proof of recovery from c19 as good enough for a “green pass” or a pass sanitaire.

There is also evidence prior coronavirus infections confer some immunity to c19. I used to get colds basically constantly, probably from travelling a lot. I’ve never picked up c19 despite being exposed to it a lot, and almost everyone I know and am around regularly has had it.

For those who have died of Covid, was "God given" death superior to vaccines?

For me, it would be, since I feel the vaccines would mean accepting a culture of death. If I die, the world and God’s kingdom on earth will go on without me just fine. We can’t live in fear of death.

[Neto]

As created, human immunity was perfect. But we are broken by the effects of sin, and are not born with perfect immunity to sickness.
I am one who "natural immunity" is less than average. I catch nearly every cold virus that comes around. I do take vitamins, take precautions, etc., but I rarely make it though a winter season w/o at least a couple of colds. (My wife is typing up her journal for years past, and found a place where she had written that I was down with my 4th cold during that winter.) I've got a bad one right now. Started with a sore throat last Monday. Moved to "classic" cold symptoms yesterday, worse today, preventing me from attending church services this morning. (Fortunately I am no longer a SS teacher - finished the quarter last Sunday. But the man who took over is also not able to be there, because their son has Covid now.) But during the period when every one was wearing masks I didn't have a single cold. (It seems really weird to me now, to refer to this sickness as a 'cold', when it actually has nothing at all to do with cold temperatures. I'm always tempted to use the Portuguese word 'gripe'...)

(But oh that we would strive toward "immunity to sin". That "natural immunity" was also destroyed by sin, but we now have The Way of Escape, and perfect immunity will once again be ours at the time of the transformation, when we become like Jesus, seeing him as he is.)

[Wayne in Maine]

For those who have died of Covid, was "God given" death superior to vaccines? If a vaccine had the death rate associated with just taking your chances, it would never be approved.

This is my biggest concern in all of these discussions. It is so uncharacteristic of Mennonites to be so wrapped up in conspiracy theories and obscure testing protocols as wild theological speculations that so many are completely lacking in compassion and unwilling to make little sacrifices for their neighbors. Someone here even thinks wearing a mask is somehow a satanic ritual or something of that sort. That sort of thing does not come out of a heart full of Love for neighbor. Followers of Jesus should be humble about this, accept the fact that scientists and doctors, not out of greed or hidden satanic purposes, are using their God given talents to protect and heal people from this awful disease. I see better examples of that compassion and humility coming from churches and even secular sources that show me that the Kingdom of God is breaking in where it is being rejected by all too many of my Mennonite brothers and sisters. I read on this forum very little about how we can respond to this crisis with all those characteristics of Mennonitism that used to be the hallmark of our faith - humility, compassion, sacrifice, faith. Let's restore that in our lives and hearts.

People are dying, people are grieving, people will die still, often unnecessarily given the proven success of vaccines and treatments in use. Do not contribute to that death toll and grief. Have a heart for those who are sick and for those who grieve. Have the heart of Jesus.

[Sudsy]

Exodus 15:(26) And said, If thou wilt diligently hearken to the voice of the LORD thy God, and wilt do that which is right in his sight, and wilt give ear to his commandments, and keep all his statutes, I will put none of these diseases upon thee, which I have brought upon the Egyptians: for I am the LORD that healeth thee.

I understand the COVID shot uses the DNA from a child that was murdered in the womb. It is wrong for a Christian to benefit in any way from the murder of the innocent.

2 Cor 6:(17) Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,

Thank you for your stand, and for your faith.
John

More accurately, it was tested on fetal stem cells.
Many modern medicines are starting to have this problem, including many monoclonal antibodies (Humira being a notable exception).

Even with a "test", they are still trying to benefit from the murder of a child. And so are we.

Rev 21:(8) But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

We take these injections because we are fearful of dying, so yes we are "fearful"...
We don't believe that God can really heal us, and so yes we are unbelieving...
And the unclean things we put inside us - they make us stink in God's eyes, so yes, we are "abominable"...
Like the parts of children that we murder and grind up to put into our injections or test our medicines, so yes, we are murderers and profit from murder...
And sorcery is "pharamkeus", or the mixing of drugs that we take, so yes, we really are sorcerers, or use the products of sorcery...
And man's "Science" and man's "Medicine" are the idols of this age that have replaced God Providence, so yes, we are idolaters too...
And then we lie to ourselves and others and say this medicine really works, when it doesn't work, so I guess you could say we are all liars too..

Well, at least we are not whoremongers. Or some of us, anyway.

But 7 wrong answers, and one "maybe", that is not really a passing grade.

John, do you really believe that those believers in Christ, some here on this forum, who have taken shots, are on their way to hell ? This is a pretty strong way to use scripture that seems to indicate you do.

You often refer to the OT and there are some things that God required in the OT that took the life of children. For instance, Joshua was told by God to slaughter women and children in Jericho but one of the commandments was 'Thou shalt not murder'. Will Joshua go to hell for this ? If not, when a Christian believes they are taking these shots to save lives, not just their own, can you say you know how God is viewing this ?

What would you say to those who have taken these shots and believe they are saving both their own life and lives of others and do not see this as murder ? Is it too late to repent ? Can you say assuredly that God views this in the same way you do ?

[JohnHurt]

More accurately, it was tested on fetal stem cells.
Many modern medicines are starting to have this problem, including many monoclonal antibodies (Humira being a notable exception).

Even with a "test", they are still trying to benefit from the murder of a child. And so are we.

Rev 21:(8) But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

We take these injections because we are fearful of dying, so yes we are "fearful"...
We don't believe that God can really heal us, and so yes we are unbelieving...
And the unclean things we put inside us - they make us stink in God's eyes, so yes, we are "abominable"...
Like the parts of children that we murder and grind up to put into our injections or test our medicines, so yes, we are murderers and profit from murder...
And sorcery is "pharamkeus", or the mixing of drugs that we take, so yes, we really are sorcerers, or use the products of sorcery...
And man's "Science" and man's "Medicine" are the idols of this age that have replaced God Providence, so yes, we are idolaters too...
And then we lie to ourselves and others and say this medicine really works, when it doesn't work, so I guess you could say we are all liars too..

Well, at least we are not whoremongers. Or some of us, anyway.

But 7 wrong answers, and one "maybe", that is not really a passing grade.

John, do you really believe that those believers in Christ, some here on this forum, who have taken shots, are on their way to hell ? This is a pretty strong way to use scripture that seems to indicate you do.

You often refer to the OT and there are some things that God required in the OT that took the life of children. For instance, Joshua was told by God to slaughter women and children in Jericho but one of the commandments was 'Thou shalt not murder'. Will Joshua go to hell for this ? If not, when a Christian believes they are taking these shots to save lives, not just their own, can you say you know how God is viewing this ?

What would you say to those who have taken these shots and believe they are saving both their own life and lives of others and do not see this as murder ? Is it too late to repent ? Can you say assuredly that God views this in the same way you do ?

Christ's message was that we should "Repent, for the Kingdom is Here!" Inside Repentance, you will Grace, for there is no need for a man to repent if there is no grace. Yet the churches teach grace with no need to repent, or that we should stop following the practice of sin.

We have all sinned and fallen short. Sin is a transgression of the law. 1 John 3;4.

But we don't all repent when we discover ourselves in sin. We rely on grace.

Is it a sin to murder a child in the womb?

Is it a sin to benefit in some way from the murder of a child in the womb?

What do you think?

That is why this question is under "General Theology".

My second question for you is...

If every Christian rejected every product (cosmetics, vaccines, etc.) that has been produced with products made from the bodies of children who were murdered in the womb, what would happen?

[Soloist]

People are dying, people are grieving, people will die still, often unnecessarily given the proven success of vaccines and treatments in use. Do not contribute to that death toll and grief. Have a heart for those who are sick and for those who grieve. Have the heart of Jesus.

People are dying, we must stop Hitler from conquering the known world. Stop clinging to obscure theological arguments and have the heart of Jesus. Have compassion on these people being killed and pick up your rifle.

You seem quite focused on condemning these obscure doctrines you disagree with and calling them hateful. Just because you are okay receiving life from abortion doesn't mean you should condemn those that would stand against it. Its not hate to stand against abortion derived medication.

[Sudsy]

Even with a "test", they are still trying to benefit from the murder of a child. And so are we.

Rev 21:(8) But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

We take these injections because we are fearful of dying, so yes we are "fearful"...
We don't believe that God can really heal us, and so yes we are unbelieving...
And the unclean things we put inside us - they make us stink in God's eyes, so yes, we are "abominable"...
Like the parts of children that we murder and grind up to put into our injections or test our medicines, so yes, we are murderers and profit from murder...
And sorcery is "pharamkeus", or the mixing of drugs that we take, so yes, we really are sorcerers, or use the products of sorcery...
And man's "Science" and man's "Medicine" are the idols of this age that have replaced God Providence, so yes, we are idolaters too...
And then we lie to ourselves and others and say this medicine really works, when it doesn't work, so I guess you could say we are all liars too..

Well, at least we are not whoremongers. Or some of us, anyway.

But 7 wrong answers, and one "maybe", that is not really a passing grade.

John, do you really believe that those believers in Christ, some here on this forum, who have taken shots, are on their way to hell ? This is a pretty strong way to use scripture that seems to indicate you do.

You often refer to the OT and there are some things that God required in the OT that took the life of children. For instance, Joshua was told by God to slaughter women and children in Jericho but one of the commandments was 'Thou shalt not murder'. Will Joshua go to hell for this ? If not, when a Christian believes they are taking these shots to save lives, not just their own, can you say you know how God is viewing this ?

What would you say to those who have taken these shots and believe they are saving both their own life and lives of others and do not see this as murder ? Is it too late to repent ? Can you say assuredly that God views this in the same way you do ?

Christ's message was that we should "Repent, for the Kingdom is Here!" Inside Repentance, you will Grace, for there is no need for a man to repent if there is no grace. Yet the churches teach grace with no need to repent, or that we should stop following the practice of sin.

We have all sinned and fallen short. Sin is a transgression of the law. 1 John 3;4.

But we don't all repent when we discover ourselves in sin. We rely on grace.

Is it a sin to murder a child in the womb?

Murder to me involves the born not the unborn. I am not for abortion after 6 weeks but I draw the line on murder different than some others do.

Is it a sin to benefit in some way from the murder of a child in the womb?

Again I don't regard this as murder.

What do you think?

That is why this question is under "General Theology".

My second question for you is...

If every Christian rejected every product (cosmetics, vaccines, etc.) that has been produced with products made from the bodies of children who were murdered in the womb, what would happen?

I suspect the world would go on just as it would if every Christian quit telling lies. However, what might happen if every Christian began loving their neighbour as they love themselves ? I believe our main calling as Christians is with regard to the eternal life of the born that they become born again. My belief is God has His place for the unborn.