Modern Day Pharisees

[Bootstrap]

If being a “Pharisee” were a big deal the Epistles would talk more about it.

Instead they spend more time talking about immorality than any other topic.

Also, many of the wrong things the Pharisees did are talked about throughout the NT and in contexts that have nothing to do with Phariseeism. That's one reason I shy away from using the term.

I agree that these things are discussed throughout the New Testament. I may post a summary ...

[Soloist]

Are you saying that being told you are not understanding the person you are responding to is fighting?

No, not at all. That is not what my request says. Not even remotely.

Then why are you refusing to acknowledge that you are misunderstanding posts when it’s pointed out to you?

[GaryK]

Is that a "no"? Are you saying you cannot agree to my request?

I just used it as an example of why we have been requesting specific examples. As long as you keep pushing your points in this thread, then I don't think there's anything wrong with asking for examples of what you are talking about.

So you are saying "no" to my request? Or is this something you can agree to?

A request: if I think something would just cause a stupid fight, and would be wrong, please don't keep forcing the issue. A lot of the "fight" in this thread is about trying to force me to go there. How many times have we been around this loop?

If you keep pushing your points about how we post on MN, I will keep asking for specific examples. I believe posts on MN are at the heart of what you are attempting to get across to us.

[Bootstrap]

Boot, he is saying that you are not understanding the writers you are responding to and that is causing these problems.

That's correct. I believe there is a lot more being read into some posts and people's motives for posting than the writers intended.

That's quite possible - and I think the best response is to clarify what you meant, not to try to get me to say something.

But I also think that the link you posted misrepresents me, and it's ironic that you would use it as proof that I should be criticizing specific posts from specific posters in MN. Here's what that post was quoting from:

Since calling someone today a Pharisee is derogatory ...

If this really were such a concept core to Christianity, it would have merited a mention at least once. Instead, calling someone a “Pharisee” is usually a rhetorical device to come up with an excuse to disobey the New Testament.

I don't think that's what I'm doing - I didn't call anyone a Pharisee, I pointed to the things Jesus accuses the Pharisees of in Matthew 23. Here's something I notice: when I discuss these things that Jesus calls sin, some people take offense, and act like I am pointing fingers at specific people and calling them Pharisees. I am not.

It's no different from discussing other things that the Bible calls sin. Name calling and pointing fingers isn't helpful, but talking about what the Bible calls sinful behavior is very important. I think you can take every one of the points made in Matthew 23 and trace them through the rest of the New Testament. Same goes for some of the points Jesus makes in the Sermon on the Mount.

So perhaps instead of taking offense, we can discuss what Jesus is talking about here? I think we probably agree that the words of Jesus apply to Christians today.

Some of this, I think, is really a fight about whether it's ever OK to use the term Pharisee at all. Some people seem to want to silence any discussion of that. But I think that is embedded deeply in the Gospels. I think it is relevant to us today. And I think we should discuss what the Bible says about Pharisees as openly as we discuss what the Bible says about gay sex.

It's probably more important for me, at any rate. Gay sex is not a temptation to me. Phariseeism is. Maybe I'm not alone in that.

[Soloist]

Some of this, I think, is really a fight about whether it's ever OK to use the term Pharisee at all. Some people seem to want to silence any discussion of that. But I think that is embedded deeply in the Gospels. I think it is relevant to us today. And I think we should discuss what the Bible says about Pharisees as openly as we discuss what the Bible says about gay sex.

It's probably more important for me, at any rate. Gay sex is not a temptation to me. Phariseeism is. Maybe I'm not alone in that.

You really need to stop that Boot. These little jabs are factually wrong and antagonistic.

[Bootstrap]

A request: if I think something would just cause a stupid fight, and would be wrong, please don't keep forcing the issue. A lot of the "fight" in this thread is about trying to force me to go there. How many times have we been around this loop?

If you keep pushing your points about how we post on MN, I will keep asking for specific examples. I believe posts on MN are at the heart of what you are attempting to get across to us.

But that's not what I believe. I think you are working hard to frame this that way, turning it into a fight. Intentionally or unintentionally, I can't tell. And I would like you to stop. Please.

[GaryK]

Boot, he is saying that you are not understanding the writers you are responding to and that is causing these problems.

That's correct. I believe there is a lot more being read into some posts and people's motives for posting than the writers intended.

That's quite possible - and I think the best response is to clarify what you meant, not to try to get me to say something.

But I also think that the link you posted misrepresents me, and it's ironic that you would use it as proof that I should be criticizing specific posts from specific posters in MN. Here's what that post was quoting from:

Since calling someone today a Pharisee is derogatory ...

If this really were such a concept core to Christianity, it would have merited a mention at least once. Instead, calling someone a “Pharisee” is usually a rhetorical device to come up with an excuse to disobey the New Testament.

I don't think that's what I'm doing - I didn't call anyone a Pharisee, I pointed to the things Jesus accuses the Pharisees of in Matthew 23. Here's something I notice: when I discuss these things that Jesus calls sin, some people take offense, and act like I am pointing fingers at specific people and calling them Pharisees. I am not.

It's no different from discussing other things that the Bible calls sin. Name calling and pointing fingers isn't helpful, but talking about what the Bible calls sinful behavior is very important. I think you can take every one of the points made in Matthew 23 and trace them through the rest of the New Testament. Same goes for some of the points Jesus makes in the Sermon on the Mount.

So perhaps instead of taking offense, we can discuss what Jesus is talking about here? I think we probably agree that the words of Jesus apply to Christians today.

Some of this, I think, is really a fight about whether it's ever OK to use the term Pharisee at all. Some people seem to want to silence any discussion of that. But I think that is embedded deeply in the Gospels. I think it is relevant to us today. And I think we should discuss what the Bible says about Pharisees as openly as we discuss what the Bible says about gay sex.

It's probably more important for me, at any rate. Gay sex is not a temptation to me. Phariseeism is.

But no one was suggesting that you called people Pharisees. You misunderstood Josh's post and thought he was saying you did. You responded by asking him to show you a post so that y'all could discuss it further. You went on to basically say that making vague accusations without showing specific examples makes for unproductive conversations. I agree.

With Jesus having spoken so harshly to the Pharisees, and with all of us being aware of the very negative connotation the term has in today's world, for it to be suggested that Phariseeism is an issue on MN, is itself going to controversial, especially to those who are conservative Anabaptist. Once it's implied cA's will most likely ask for examples of what is being alleged.

[GaryK]

A request: if I think something would just cause a stupid fight, and would be wrong, please don't keep forcing the issue. A lot of the "fight" in this thread is about trying to force me to go there. How many times have we been around this loop?

If you keep pushing your points about how we post on MN, I will keep asking for specific examples. I believe posts on MN are at the heart of what you are attempting to get across to us.

But that's not what I believe. I think you are working hard to frame this that way, turning it into a fight. Intentionally or unintentionally, I can't tell. And I would like you to stop. Please.

If you don't believe that, then stop mentioning how we post on MN. You have mentioned it numerous times and I find it difficult to understand how that has nothing to do with you brining up the issue in the first place.

[Bootstrap]

If you keep pushing your points about how we post on MN, I will keep asking for specific examples. I believe posts on MN are at the heart of what you are attempting to get across to us.

But that's not what I believe. I think you are working hard to frame this that way, turning it into a fight. Intentionally or unintentionally, I can't tell. And I would like you to stop. Please.

If you don't believe that, then stop mentioning how we post on MN. You have mentioned it numerous times and I find it difficult to understand how that has nothing to do with you bringing up the issue in the first place.

There's a lot of distance between (1) "at the heart of what you are attempting to get across to us" and (2) "nothing to do with". Perhaps I can suggest (3) "something to do with"?

And I thought the best way to approach this is not to pick apart people's past posts, attack specific people or groups, etc., but to focus on what Scripture says. I have almost never seen people come to understand each other better by going back and trying to figure out who had misunderstood whose posts exactly how, especially when they disagree. That almost always leads to nothing but a fight that distracts entirely from whatever we are trying to discuss.

[Soloist]

And I thought the best way to approach this is not to pick apart people's past posts, attack specific people or groups, etc., but to focus on what Scripture says. I have almost never seen people come to understand each other better by going back and trying to figure out who had misunderstood whose posts exactly how, especially when they disagree. That almost always leads to nothing but a fight that distracts entirely from whatever we are trying to discuss.

That’s the very point. You keep doing exactly what you say you don’t want to do. You drop the names but are doing it nevertheless.