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Re: Poll: Is it religious persecution... ???
Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2023 6:13 pm
by Bootstrap
Ernie wrote: ↑Tue Sep 26, 2023 6:01 pm
Religious persecution is on a spectrum from rolling one's eyes at someone else because of his beliefs, to mental bombardment to get people to weaken their faith, to being torn apart limb by limb, burnt at the stake, or crucified.
It is all wrong but the latter is much, much more evil.
What definition are you using for religious persecution? Who else uses this definition?
Re: Poll: Is it religious persecution... ???
Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2023 6:33 pm
by Ernie
Szdfan wrote: ↑Tue Sep 26, 2023 6:05 pm
Ernie wrote: ↑Tue Sep 26, 2023 6:01 pm
Religious persecution is on a spectrum from rolling one's eyes at someone else because of his beliefs
So when people here call another faith a "false religion" and disparage it, are they also engaging in religious persecution?
You can call another religion "false" and still be respectful to the people. The only time I think we should not be respectful to others is when people are misrepresenting God and doing evil and projecting the idea that God is behind them.
Re: Poll: Is it religious persecution... ???
Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2023 6:37 pm
by Ernie
Bootstrap wrote: ↑Tue Sep 26, 2023 6:13 pm
Ernie wrote: ↑Tue Sep 26, 2023 6:01 pm
Religious persecution is on a spectrum from rolling one's eyes at someone else because of his beliefs, to mental bombardment to get people to weaken their faith, to being torn apart limb by limb, burnt at the stake, or crucified.
It is all wrong but the latter is much, much more evil.
What definition are you using for religious persecution? Who else uses this definition?
Merriam-Webster
1: to harass or punish in a manner designed to injure, grieve, or afflict
specifically : to cause to suffer because of belief
2: to annoy with persistent or urgent approaches (such as attacks, pleas, or importunities)
Oxford Languages
1. hostility and ill-treatment, especially on the basis of ethnicity, religion, or sexual orientation or political beliefs.
2. persistent annoyance or harassment
Re: Poll: Is it religious persecution... ???
Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2023 6:39 pm
by Bootstrap
Ernie wrote: ↑Tue Sep 26, 2023 6:37 pm
Bootstrap wrote: ↑Tue Sep 26, 2023 6:13 pm
What definition are you using for religious persecution? Who else uses this definition?
Merriam-Webster
1: to harass or punish in a manner designed to injure, grieve, or afflict
specifically : to cause to suffer because of belief
2: to annoy with persistent or urgent approaches (such as attacks, pleas, or importunities)
Oxford Languages
1. hostility and ill-treatment, especially on the basis of ethnicity, religion, or sexual orientation or political beliefs.
2. persistent annoyance or harassment
To me, eye rolling doesn't seem to fit either definition. Do you think it does? Can you say more?
To me, neither does closed communion. At our church, we do not give communion to people who are not baptised Christians, I don't consider that religious persecution of Muslims or Jews.
... mental bombardment to get people to weaken their faith, to being torn apart limb by limb, burnt at the stake, or crucified.
Those are more in line with what I think of as persecution.
Re: Unwritten, yet commonly understood rules/standards/beliefs that your church has?
Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2023 8:34 pm
by RZehr
Ah, good old inflation strikes.
Re: Poll: Is it religious persecution... ???
Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2023 9:16 pm
by Ken
"Persecution" is a broad term with lots of different possible meanings and contexts. "Religious persecution" has a narrower meaning
David T. Smith, in Religious Persecution and Political Order in the United States, defines religious persecution as:
"violence or discrimination against members of a religious minority because of their religious affiliation," referring to "actions that are intended to deprive individuals of their political rights and force minorities to assimilate, leave, or live as second-class citizens. In the aspect of a state's policy, it may be defined as violations of freedom of thought, conscience and belief which are spread in accordance with a systematic and active state policy which encourages actions such as harassment, intimidation and the imposition of punishments in order to infringe or threaten the targeted minority's right to life, integrity or liberty. The distinction between religious persecution and religious intolerance lies in the fact that in most cases, the latter is motivated by the sentiment of the population, which may be tolerated or encouraged by the state. The denial of people's civil rights on the basis of their religion is most frequently described as religious discrimination, rather than religious persecution.
Examples of persecution include the confiscation or destruction of property, incitement of hatred, arrests, imprisonment, beatings, torture, murder, and executions. Religious persecution can be considered the opposite of freedom of religion.
Bateman has differentiated different degrees of persecution. "It must be personally costly... It must be unjust and undeserved... it must be a direct result of one's faith."
I think that sounds about right.
Re: Poll: Is it religious persecution... ???
Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2023 9:41 pm
by Ernie
Bootstrap wrote: ↑Tue Sep 26, 2023 6:39 pm
To me, eye rolling doesn't seem to fit either definition. Do you think it does? Can you say more?
I think it depends on the context. To repeatedly discriminate against someone because of their religion (by rolling eyes and other things) is a mild form or persecution. When I was a youth, I couldn't handle even mild persecution. I know that many youth today will lose sleep if people roll their eyes too often or use other verbal or body language that says, you are not good enough for me because you come from the wrong church or look the wrong way.
Bootstrap wrote: ↑Tue Sep 26, 2023 6:39 pm
To me, neither does closed communion. At our church, we do not give communion to people who are not baptised Christians, I don't consider that religious persecution of Muslims or Jews.
I think I've said at least ten times in this thread, that I am talking about people who have the basically the same NT beliefs and practices. Even though they are foundationally the same, they may ostracize, disassociate with, or hold at arms length, those who are culturally different or part of a different sect.
Re: Poll: Is it religious persecution... ???
Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2023 9:57 pm
by barnhart
Years ago I read an article in Voice of the Martyrs how a certain people group were being persecuted for their faith and not long after I met a photo journalist fresh back from reporting on that situation. The two views did not align. Faith may have played some part but there was also a long history of armed conflict between these groups as well. The persecuted Christians it seems were dealing out about as much as they were receiving.
Re: Poll: Is it religious persecution... ???
Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2023 11:21 pm
by AndersonD
Ernie wrote: ↑Tue Sep 26, 2023 9:41 pm
Bootstrap wrote: ↑Tue Sep 26, 2023 6:39 pm
To me, eye rolling doesn't seem to fit either definition. Do you think it does? Can you say more?
I think it depends on the context. To repeatedly discriminate against someone because of their religion (by rolling eyes and other things) is a mild form or persecution. When I was a youth, I couldn't handle even mild persecution. I know that many youth today will lose sleep if people roll their eyes too often or use other verbal or body language that says, you are not good enough for me because you come from the wrong church or look the wrong way.
I find this relatable and remember being booed by various groups - Beachy, Pilgrim and NC GB. It is a form of persecution I think but I learned to not take it personally. I have faced more ridicule from other plain groups than from the world.
Re: Unwritten, yet commonly understood rules/standards/beliefs that your church has?
Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2023 8:24 am
by Josh
Ken wrote: ↑Tue Sep 26, 2023 10:53 am
Josh wrote: ↑Tue Sep 26, 2023 10:43 am
I do not feel persecuted because I am prohibited from sitting on the ladies’ side or entering their nursery.
Would you feel religiously persecuted if as a non-member you were not allowed to sit in the members section or participate in communion at the church that Ernie is criticizing?
Not at all. I’m not a member of their specific community and don’t adhere to all their practices, although I understand why they do them.