Without fault

[Neto]

As Sudsy points out, none of us are perfect, sinless. The process of sanctification to which he also refers is just that, a process. But I fear for the position of self-acclaimed Christians who do not seek to "be holy as God is holy", who consistently reject the work of the Holy Spirit in their lives.

In the same way, no congregation is perfect, and the Body of Christ is not perfect. Except, as Sudsy points out, in our collective position in Christ, through his death and resurrection. And, I would add, I also fear for the position of the congregation that ignores the work of the Holy Spirit in the life of the congregation, in the lives of its individual members. And I also believe that church discipline and eventually excommunication is part of that sensitivity to the voice of the Holy Spirit. If that is not faithfully carried out, they will get a reprimand like that received by some of the 7 congregations addressed in the Book of the Revelation. - Or worse.

[Coifi]

Joh 8:7  So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

What does it mean for a church to be without spot or wrinkle?
What does it mean to be found blameless without spot?
How does this work with the statement “there is no perfect church”?

I think the verse from John 8 is being misinterpreted. Jesus' intention is not to encourage those who are without sin to throw stones at the adulteress. Instead, he is highlighting the universal presence of sin, implying that no one possesses the "right" or authority to condemn the adulteress to death.

I had the same thought, actually. I do not think any of us has the authority to condemn someone to death. With that frame, what it seems Christ is doing in that passage is pointing out what the religious leaders should have known well from the prophets - that judgement (vengeance) is God's alone.

To respond to Josh and Chris in this vein, the point of excommunication isn't to condemn a person. It's for the repentance of who is excommunicated. I'd suggest that this is what Paul is referring to in 1 Corinthians 5:5 when he says to, "Hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the Day of the Lord." Even excommunication is about repentance, just like all things in the Christian life should be. Of course, we can condemn certain behaviors, but not people. I'd actually suggest that that is the point of the passage from John which is being discussed.

This seems to be a rabbit trail, though, away from the main questions. I wrote a response last night, but lost it because of my unfamiliarity with this platform. I'll write a response later (don't have time at the moment), but just to stir the pot a little, I'll suggest now that there can be (are) perfect churches just as there can be (are) perfect Christians. :)

[Josh]

I had the same thought, actually. I do not think any of us has the authority to condemn someone to death. With that frame, what it seems Christ is doing in that passage is pointing out what the religious leaders should have known well from the prophets - that judgement (vengeance) is God's alone.

Actually, we do - just not to an earthly death, but we have the authority to judge and condemn to the Second Death:

Or do you not know that the Lord’s people will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases?

To respond to Josh and Chris in this vein, the point of excommunication isn't to condemn a person. It's for the repentance of who is excommunicated. I'd suggest that this is what Paul is referring to in 1 Corinthians 5:5 when he says to, "Hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the Day of the Lord." Even excommunication is about repentance, just like all things in the Christian life should be. Of course, we can condemn certain behaviors, but not people. I'd actually suggest that that is the point of the passage from John which is being discussed.

... of course it is. That doesn't mean that the person who commits adultery is not spiritually dead and hellbound, however. Our role is simply to observe that this is happened and then to "not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat."

None of this abrogates that God's perfect law that he handed to Moses indeed did mandate the execution of adulterers and adulteresses. That is how God ordains a just society to be ordered.

[Coifi]

I had the same thought, actually. I do not think any of us has the authority to condemn someone to death. With that frame, what it seems Christ is doing in that passage is pointing out what the religious leaders should have known well from the prophets - that judgement (vengeance) is God's alone.

Actually, we do - just not to an earthly death, but we have the authority to judge and condemn to the Second Death:

Or do you not know that the Lord’s people will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases?

That passage from 1 Corinthians 6:2 seems to be talking about the life to come, not this present life. The saints will judge the world; the saints will judge the angels. If you mean to say that this verse gives Christians authority to condemn people to hell in this life, then shouldn't it also mean the same about angels? Yet none of the apostles do that in their earthly life, nor do they condemn people to hell in this earthly life. At least, if they did, they are not recorded in Scripture or in the writings of the Early Church. If there is an instance of this that I am unaware of, please let me know.

I do not see how a person such as Paul who says that he is the chief of sinners could look at a brother suggest that he is definitely going to hell. Those two things don't logically go together (unless you think Paul believed he was going to hell).

[Josh]

That passage from 1 Corinthians 6:2 seems to be talking about the life to come, not this present life. The saints will judge the world; the saints will judge the angels. If you mean to say that this verse gives Christians authority to condemn people to hell in this life, then shouldn't it also mean the same about angels?

Judgment does not condemn people to hell. The sinner's own unrepentant sins do. Passing judgment simply means observing that has happened.

Yet none of the apostles do that in their earthly life, nor do they condemn people to hell in this earthly life. At least, if they did, they are not recorded in Scripture or in the writings of the Early Church. If there is an instance of this that I am unaware of, please let me know.

Now a man named Ananias, together with Sapphira his wife, sold a piece of property. He kept back for himself part of the proceeds with his wife’s knowledge; he brought only part of it and placed it at the apostles’ feet. But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back for yourself part of the proceeds from the sale of the land? 4 Before it was sold, did it not belong to you? And when it was sold, was the money not at your disposal? How have you thought up this deed in your heart? You have not lied to people but to God!”

When Ananias heard these words he collapsed and died, and great fear gripped all who heard about it. So the young men came, wrapped him up, carried him out, and buried him. After an interval of about three hours, his wife came in, but she did not know what had happened. Peter said to her, “Tell me, were the two of you paid this amount for the land?” Sapphira said, “Yes, that much.” Peter then told her, “Why have you agreed together to test the Spirit of the Lord? Look! The feet of those who have buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out!” At once she collapsed at his feet and died. So when the young men came in, they found her dead, and they carried her out and buried her beside her husband. Great fear gripped the whole church and all who heard about these things.

Peter's quotation “Why have you agreed together to test the Spirit of the Lord? Look! The feet of those who have buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out!” is probably the most direct one we can see in the New Testament of one of the Lord's apostles directly calling out an unrepentant sinner. The wages of sin were death, and God saw fit to punish unrepentant sin amongst those who were formerly the saints with both an earthly death and, we might presume, the second death when we all face the final judgment.[*]

I do not see how a person such as Paul who says that he is the chief of sinners could look at a brother suggest that he is definitely going to hell. Those two things don't logically go together (unless you think Paul believed he was going to hell).

Paul's reference to being chief of sinners was before his conversion, not after. Paul exhorts us to be perfect, even as he is perfect (as he imitates Christ).

[*] I am open to doctrines of soteriology that perhaps such people may be saved in the end; indeed, it seems we are called to live lives on earth such that some day we will be able to pass sound judgment at the judgment of the quick and the dead.

[Soloist]

None of this abrogates that God's perfect law that he handed to Moses indeed did mandate the execution of adulterers and adulteresses. That is how God ordains a just society to be ordered.

They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away?
Mat 19:8  He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.

Heb 8:7  For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
Heb 8:8  For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

[Josh]

None of this abrogates that God's perfect law that he handed to Moses indeed did mandate the execution of adulterers and adulteresses. That is how God ordains a just society to be ordered.

They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away?
Mat 19:8  He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.

Heb 8:7  For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
Heb 8:8  For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

What are you saying? The Ten Commandments no longer apply? Are the wages of sin no longer death?

[Coifi]

Passing judgment simply means observing that has happened.

Could you expand on this? I am not certain of what you mean or how you arrived here.

Paul's reference to being chief of sinners was before his conversion, not after. Paul exhorts us to be perfect, even as he is perfect (as he imitates Christ).

1 Timothy 1:15 seems to be in the present tense. As in, the phase is "of whom I am chief." You are right, though, that the context of this passage is about his earlier life.

I appreciate the example of Ananias, but I do not see how you can go from that passage to saying Peter condemned them to hell at that moment. It may be that we are using different definitions of the word judgement or that I have imputed an understanding of that word onto the things you are saying. So I guess I will just reiterate my first question about what you mean by your definition of passing judgement.

[Soloist]

What are you saying? The Ten Commandments no longer apply? Are the wages of sin no longer death?

I am saying the old covenant was found to have fault. Using it as a basis for saying people should be killed, when you yourself would have been guilty and deserving death under Old Testament law. Would you like to be judged and convicted here on earth by your compliance with sabbath keeping? Or other sin issues?

Luk 9:52  And sent messengers before his face: and they went, and entered into a village of the Samaritans, to make ready for him.
Luk 9:53  And they did not receive him, because his face was as though he would go to Jerusalem.
Luk 9:54  And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did?
Luk 9:55  But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.
Luk 9:56  For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village.

[Josh]

What are you saying? The Ten Commandments no longer apply? Are the wages of sin no longer death?

I am saying the old covenant was found to have fault. Using it as a basis for saying people should be killed, when you yourself would have been guilty and deserving death under Old Testament law. Would you like to be judged and convicted here on earth by your compliance with sabbath keeping? Or other sin issues?

Luk 9:52  And sent messengers before his face: and they went, and entered into a village of the Samaritans, to make ready for him.
Luk 9:53  And they did not receive him, because his face was as though he would go to Jerusalem.
Luk 9:54  And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did?
Luk 9:55  But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.
Luk 9:56  For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village.

I think that commandments like “do not murder” and “do not commit adultery” are still binding today, even if governments don’t always enforce them.

Jesus offers salvation and forgiveness of sins, but only so far as sinners are willing to confess their sins and turn away from them.