Pietism

[MaxPC]

Unfortunately, there are still seekers coming in who are being driven away by the exclusivity of Anabaptism, where tradition trumps truth in too many instances, in my opinion.

Sad indeed. We are praying for all involved.

[lesterb]

Unfortunately, there are still seekers coming in who are being driven away by the exclusivity of Anabaptism, where tradition trumps truth in too many instances, in my opinion.

Maybe it doesn't happen so much on here, but in real life, there are also people who leave for the opposite reason. They feel that we are too loose.

Note also that when you say tradition trumps truth, you are actually saying that our tradition trumps what YOU think is truth. Unfortunately that is pretty subjective. I suspect that if you joined our church and we changed everything that needed to be changed to make you comfortable, I'd no longer feel comfortable.

So what is truth? Your opinion? Mine? Ernie's? Bootstrap's? Maybe if we mixed all our opinions together we'd have truth? Or if we just allowed each us to go by our own opinion? The latter is where the modern day definition of pietism came from. Charity churches were viewed as going by that last approach, and that scared people.

[Josh]

My experience in Anabaptism in a church that had a lot of seekers was the average already-Christian seeker generally wanted a place with a stricter lifestyle than we could offer. Two examples were one who wanted to compel the beard being worn, and another who wanted no Internet use. Unfortunately, it's not possible to offer a strict lifestyle standard that is exactly to a seeker's specifications.

Those who give up and turn away because of the exlucisivity are rare in my experience - I have yet to run into any. A seeker gets lots and lots of time to make changes.

I have spoken at length about issues I see with very long instruction classes, etc. but none of that is caused me to give up. And if someone is looking for a "less exclusive" option there are Anabaptist groups out there really trying hard to be that, both plain and non-plain.

[Bootstrap]

My experience in Anabaptism in a church that had a lot of seekers was the average already-Christian seeker generally wanted a place with a stricter lifestyle than we could offer. Two examples were one who wanted to compel the beard being worn, and another who wanted no Internet use. Unfortunately, it's not possible to offer a strict lifestyle standard that is exactly to a seeker's specifications.

So often, it seems like people are particularly interested in the "outside of the cup". The "inside of the cup" is the part to be really strict about. We see some of that on MN too, people who care mostly about interesting cultural and religious practices.

[Bootstrap]

Unfortunately, there are still seekers coming in who are being driven away by the exclusivity of Anabaptism, where tradition trumps truth in too many instances, in my opinion.

Maybe it doesn't happen so much on here, but in real life, there are also people who leave for the opposite reason. They feel that we are too loose.

You can be both too exclusive and too loose at the same time. And a lot of Christians are, letting you know what's wrong with everyone else but not putting a lot of demands on themselves or examining themselves before God together with others on any regular basis.

Exclusivity doesn't really cost you anything or require any particular maturity. It's so easy to look down on all those other Christians and all those other people, to thank God that you aren't like that tax collector over there.

I don't think Jesus was "exclusive" - he hung out with all kinds of sinners and tax collectors and prostitutes - but he sacrificed everything for us. One thing the Pietists had right: examining ourselves before God, focusing on genuine love to God and to neighbor, focusing on what God is saying to us instead of to the other guy. I think a lot of Mennonites have that right too.

[Josh]

I've found a lot of eager seekers get disappointed with conservative Mennonites when we aren't as focused on the outside of the cup as they were hoping for. A recent example was someone horrified we don't have a stand against Christmas trees and Harry Potter novels (although nobody at my old church would do either of these things, nobody would be particularly concerned if someone did).

[gcdonner]

Unfortunately, there are still seekers coming in who are being driven away by the exclusivity of Anabaptism, where tradition trumps truth in too many instances, in my opinion.

Maybe it doesn't happen so much on here, but in real life, there are also people who leave for the opposite reason. They feel that we are too loose.

Note also that when you say tradition trumps truth, you are actually saying that our tradition trumps what YOU think is truth. Unfortunately that is pretty subjective. I suspect that if you joined our church and we changed everything that needed to be changed to make you comfortable, I'd no longer feel comfortable.

So what is truth? Your opinion? Mine? Ernie's? Bootstrap's? Maybe if we mixed all our opinions together we'd have truth? Or if we just allowed each us to go by our own opinion? The latter is where the modern day definition of pietism came from. Charity churches were viewed as going by that last approach, and that scared people.

That is the reason for the plethora of Mennonite churches too, isn't it? Why aren't you Amish? It works both ways lester. I'm not so sure it is a bad thing when it comes right down to it. We can't all be the fingers or the toes, and this facet of the Body is true of denominations as well as individuals.
I would never ask your church to change anything, nor have I, but rather submitted to the leadership until such time as I deemed it better to quietly leave in peace than stay and create a commotion. As you should realize, lester, I am not about getting everyone to change to my view, even though I defend it here. If that were so, I wouldn't be attending a Lutheran church right now, or a Baptist church before this. As you probably know, I have fellowshipped in a myriad of different places, and I don't know of one to this day that I couldn't go back to and find fellowship again, including Mennonite churches.
I know first hand that not all members of Mennonite churches are in full agreement with everything their particular denomination stands for, yet they often remain, for much the same reason that I am staying at the particular church I am at now. I love the people.
I think you might be surprised at how well you and I would get along in person.

[gcdonner]

I've found a lot of eager seekers get disappointed with conservative Mennonites when we aren't as focused on the outside of the cup as they were hoping for. A recent example was someone horrified we don't have a stand against Christmas trees and Harry Potter novels (although nobody at my old church would do either of these things, nobody would be particularly concerned if someone did).

Some seekers are "Lifestyle" seekers, looking for a more back to the land ideal, and separation from the world. I can identify with the above comments, Josh, since when I joined a particular Anabaptist group, I was disappointed in their lack of simplicity and plainness. After a while I came to appreciate where they were at when I realized what they had come from. To be honest if it were not for one particular leader's gunning for me, I probably would still be there, except that I now see the wide range of people I have had the opportunity to fellowship with over the years. Sadly, that leader fell away, but not until he had done a lot of damage in that group.

[Valerie]

My experience in Anabaptism in a church that had a lot of seekers was the average already-Christian seeker generally wanted a place with a stricter lifestyle than we could offer. Two examples were one who wanted to compel the beard being worn, and another who wanted no Internet use. Unfortunately, it's not possible to offer a strict lifestyle standard that is exactly to a seeker's specifications.

Those who give up and turn away because of the exlucisivity are rare in my experience - I have yet to run into any. A seeker gets lots and lots of time to make changes.

I have spoken at length about issues I see with very long instruction classes, etc. but none of that is caused me to give up. And if someone is looking for a "less exclusive" option there are Anabaptist groups out there really trying hard to be that, both plain and non-plain.

You make me mindful again of that book written by an Amish bishop I mentioned the other day- (and I cannot remember who has it! or the name of it) but the bishop explained how seekers were somewhat like a Salmon that is making it's way upstream, going against the current, etc. They are patient with seekers if they see their heart is willing. Interestingly enough, the Amish person that sent me the books, never was made a member in the community he lived in for several years- but 'englishers' coming from the outside, were! Including a divorced woman! So the one who was always Amish, and baptized Amish, was rejected from membership/communion (because he was too evangelistic or perhaps they thought too self willed?) but many other families 'made it up the stream'.

[Josh]

There are two sides to every Amish excommunication. I'm finding that those excommunicated for "preaching the gospel" have an actual story of being excommunicated for being unsubmissive, trying to convince all their brethren they aren't saved, and often preaching Luther's false gospel.

Ultimately I think us outsiders should focus a bit less on internal Amish politics. The last person I know who was in the process of joining an Amish church had a big change in her life there and that's where she got "sold" on Anabaptism.