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temporal1 wrote:

MaxPC wrote: T1.

i wasn’t sure how you would respond to this thread.
was not expecting a “high-5!”

It's because I agree with your statements:

temporal1 wrote: i believe this awful continued/renewed scandal is an opportunity for Catholic leadership to “hit bottom” then to be renewed, possibly, as not before. there is One Way. no other, no exceptions, no shortcuts. the offer is sincere.

i’m praying Jesus’ offer will be accepted.
if so, what a day that would be.

That's been our Catholic history since Peter: we fall down. The Holy Spirit raises us again when we listen.
[bible]Hebrews 12, 6-11[/bible]

I'd like to be able to pray for the people and this situation without making this thread a referendum on the Catholic Church. I would rather not attack it or discuss the notion that Mennonites are dependent on the strength of the Catholic Church in a prayer thread.

I'll continue praying.

I pray for both the victims of these horrific tragedies and also for those who committed them.

temporal1 wrote:To paraphrase an observation from Mr Jim:
The Catholic Church is “the big target” for those who want to destroy (all) of Christianity.
He added something to the effect that, if the Catholic Church were to disappear, the rest of us would be “quick work” for attackers.

i think i agree.

i've watched it on md. there was a point in time, where dan z was being attacked constantly by one poster. and i made the comment, come on, who goes after dan? the most loved person on md?

in time, i came to realize, there would be 2 reasons why a person would go after the big honcho, rather than the smaller peons.
1. if the small peons see someone have the gall to try to bring down a well loved big shot, they certainly won't have any qualms about bringing down someone lesser. it creates fear in the small peons. and quite possibly a change of allegiance on the part of the small peons.
2. destroy the big guy, and take his place. all the smaller guys will be destroyed, or will fall in line.

so yes, i think i agree with mr jim.

That's a good analysis of the strategy, justme.

But there is a significant difference. MD was not indestructible (obviously). The true church is, and not even the bill gates of hell will be able to destroy it. Even if "the big target" falls, and many small peons follow, there will still be faithful believers left.

Elijah in 1 Kings 19 is a good example of this. He says "I alone am left, just me, nobody else, and they seek to take my life" but God retorts "Ha! I still have 7000 people who worship me instead of Baal."

Human reasoning, academia, statisticians, actuaries, scientists, aggressors, kings, dictators, et al., make all sorts of claims+plans, but every human plan has the “unknown quantity,” God’s Plan.

Not sure why “we” persist in ignoring, “The Fact of all facts.”
Utter madness.

ohio jones wrote:But there is a significant difference. MD was not indestructible (obviously). The true church is, and not even the bill gates of hell will be able to destroy it. Even if "the big target" falls, and many small peons follow, there will still be faithful believers left.

Elijah in 1 Kings 19 is a good example of this. He says "I alone am left, just me, nobody else, and they seek to take my life" but God retorts "Ha! I still have 7000 people who worship me instead of Baal."

there will still be faithful believers.
you are correct again, as always, oj

justme wrote:

ohio jones wrote:But there is a significant difference. MD was not indestructible (obviously). The true church is, and not even the bill gates of hell will be able to destroy it. Even if "the big target" falls, and many small peons follow, there will still be faithful believers left.

Elijah in 1 Kings 19 is a good example of this. He says "I alone am left, just me, nobody else, and they seek to take my life" but God retorts "Ha! I still have 7000 people who worship me instead of Baal."

there will still be faithful believers.
you are correct again, as always, oj

I agree.

Beyond that, when any church body is caught in serious sin, focusing on what this might look like to outsiders is not helpful. It makes true repentance harder.

The real issue is what this means to insiders, the people under the care of the church, what it means for the moral standing of the church for its members, and finding ways to repent deeply in ways that will lead to healing and lasting change. If a church does this well, eventually that will become obvious to the outside as well.

Again, this has happened with other churches too, including some Mennonite churches. So let's not cast stones here. But I don't think we should focus on worrying about what others might think, the standing of the church, etc. As Mennonites, the most we can do for the Catholics is pray, that is not our problem to solve. But we do face this same problem in some of our churches, so let's pray for them as well.

ohio jones wrote:That's a good analysis of the strategy, justme.

But there is a significant difference. MD was not indestructible (obviously). The true church is, and not even the bill gates of hell will be able to destroy it. Even if "the big target" falls, and many small peons follow, there will still be faithful believers left.

Elijah in 1 Kings 19 is a good example of this. He says "I alone am left, just me, nobody else, and they seek to take my life" but God retorts "Ha! I still have 7000 people who worship me instead of Baal."

Indeed, the Catholic Church may very well be part of the gates of hell trying to prevail against the church; that's certainly what Anabaptists believe (or used to believe), and likewise the rest of Protestant Christianity.

I really do not care if some secular people think they can "destroy" Christianity. Jesus is indestructible. The pagan Romans and 1,500 years later the Roman Catholics tried throwing true followers of God into rivers, cut out their tongues, nailed them to crosses, and burnt them at the stake, and yet Christianity and Jesus' church flourishes today and will continue to do so.

ohio jones wrote:That's a good analysis of the strategy, justme.

But there is a significant difference. MD was not indestructible (obviously). The true church is, and not even the bill gates of hell will be able to destroy it. Even if "the big target" falls, and many small peons follow, there will still be faithful believers left.

Elijah in 1 Kings 19 is a good example of this. He says "I alone am left, just me, nobody else, and they seek to take my life" but God retorts "Ha! I still have 7000 people who worship me instead of Baal."

For God, even one faithful disciple is enough.

Thank you all for your prayers. They are very much appreciated. We are seeing a lot of young people filling the pews and praying for our leadership as well as to see a renewal of the faith. God is faithful and He will provide.