Was sin an inevitable?

[lesterb]

I do not believe that sin was inevitable.

When we are in eternity with God, will we have free will? Is it possible that we could then choose to rebel against God, as Lucifer did? I tend to think that the answer to both questions is yes. However, I do not believe that such rebellion will actually occur despite the theoretical potential for it. We will have every reason to faithfully worship God for eternity, and resurrected natures to enable us to do so.

Likewise, I believe that Adam and Eve could have chosen to continue obeying God, and I suspect that, had they done so, with time they and their descendants would have grown less and less susceptible to temptation. But this is largely speculation, of course.

This is why man's sin can be forgiven but the sin of Satan and the angels can't. In heaven there is no outside influence to cause sin, and without the carnal nature there is no inside influence. That made sin in heaven a total aberration - and unforgivable.

[ken_sylvania]

I do not believe that sin was inevitable.

When we are in eternity with God, will we have free will? Is it possible that we could then choose to rebel against God, as Lucifer did? I tend to think that the answer to both questions is yes. However, I do not believe that such rebellion will actually occur despite the theoretical potential for it. We will have every reason to faithfully worship God for eternity, and resurrected natures to enable us to do so.

Likewise, I believe that Adam and Eve could have chosen to continue obeying God, and I suspect that, had they done so, with time they and their descendants would have grown less and less susceptible to temptation. But this is largely speculation, of course.

This is why man's sin can be forgiven but the sin of Satan and the angels can't. In heaven there is no outside influence to cause sin, and without the carnal nature there is no inside influence. That made sin in heaven a total aberration - and unforgivable.

I'm not sure I follow your logic. What was the outside influence in Eden that caused sin? And if you answer "the serpent," then how is that different from Satan's influence which caused other angels to rebel against God? Wasn't that "outside influence" as well?

[Valerie]

In considering lesterb's question, a couple of conversations with my son was brought to mind. He was raised learning the Truth- Scripture, Sunday School, etc- (although his father undermined this, I believe it still 'got through' to Matthew).

He presented me with his heartfelt opinion/question. Why did God make us with a 'seemingly' bent towards sin. In his observance, and experience (although a very ethical person) it seems to my son, that we are 'flawed' and why would God have made us to where we have more of a tendency to fail than to succeed. It seems to really perplex him and I believe, hurt his faith. Although I've explained about free will, the fall, etc- he still concludes it seems God almost set us up to fail. I have not gotten through to him about this- but this thread brings out the sadness I feel when I listen to him- he also can't understand why God made angels that would fail as well- (of course 2/3 did not) but the many passages of Scripture that tend to lead one to conclude many are called but 'few' are chosen seems to discourage him. We need a Savior, but why couldn't we have been made with more of a bent 'against' sin- after all, sin is missing the mark- and transgressions-wondered if anyone else has gone through this line of thinking-

Just pondering all this-

[silentreader]

In considering lesterb's question, a couple of conversations with my son was brought to mind. He was raised learning the Truth- Scripture, Sunday School, etc- (although his father undermined this, I believe it still 'got through' to Matthew).

He presented me with his heartfelt opinion/question. Why did God make us with a 'seemingly' bent towards sin. In his observance, and experience (although a very ethical person) it seems to my son, that we are 'flawed' and why would God have made us to where we have more of a tendency to fail than to succeed. It seems to really perplex him and I believe, hurt his faith. Although I've explained about free will, the fall, etc- he still concludes it seems God almost set us up to fail. I have not gotten through to him about this- but this thread brings out the sadness I feel when I listen to him- he also can't understand why God made angels that would fail as well- (of course 2/3 did not) but the many passages of Scripture that tend to lead one to conclude many are called but 'few' are chosen seems to discourage him. We need a Savior, but why couldn't we have been made with more of a bent 'against' sin- after all, sin is missing the mark- and transgressions-wondered if anyone else has gone through this line of thinking-

Just pondering all this-

I would be inclined to think that it is not necessarily a bent toward sin directly as it is a bent to hold the interests of self above all else. Even Eve in the Garden of Eden was convinced by the serpent that his suggestions were in her self-interest. A focus on 'serving' self draws us away from obedience to God.
In his rebellion, Lucifer said, "I will...."

[lesterb]

I do not believe that sin was inevitable.

When we are in eternity with God, will we have free will? Is it possible that we could then choose to rebel against God, as Lucifer did? I tend to think that the answer to both questions is yes. However, I do not believe that such rebellion will actually occur despite the theoretical potential for it. We will have every reason to faithfully worship God for eternity, and resurrected natures to enable us to do so.

Likewise, I believe that Adam and Eve could have chosen to continue obeying God, and I suspect that, had they done so, with time they and their descendants would have grown less and less susceptible to temptation. But this is largely speculation, of course.

This is why man's sin can be forgiven but the sin of Satan and the angels can't. In heaven there is no outside influence to cause sin, and without the carnal nature there is no inside influence. That made sin in heaven a total aberration - and unforgivable.

I'm not sure I follow your logic. What was the outside influence in Eden that caused sin? And if you answer "the serpent," then how is that different from Satan's influence which caused other angels to rebel against God? Wasn't that "outside influence" as well?

You're right I guess, now that I stop and think about it. But there is a difference. Did it have to do with innocence? Vs. responsibility? Was there a sense in which God was stacking the deck by allowing free will? In what way was free will on earth different from free will in heaven? Does free will actually require the threat of punishment to make it work? But if so is it really free will anymore?

I guess it shows us that we can't really second guess God.

[ken_sylvania]

This is why man's sin can be forgiven but the sin of Satan and the angels can't. In heaven there is no outside influence to cause sin, and without the carnal nature there is no inside influence. That made sin in heaven a total aberration - and unforgivable.

I'm not sure I follow your logic. What was the outside influence in Eden that caused sin? And if you answer "the serpent," then how is that different from Satan's influence which caused other angels to rebel against God? Wasn't that "outside influence" as well?

You're right I guess, now that I stop and think about it. But there is a difference. Did it have to do with innocence? Vs. responsibility? Was there a sense in which God was stacking the deck by allowing free will? In what way was free will on earth different from free will in heaven? Does free will actually require the threat of punishment to make it work? But if so is it really free will anymore?

I guess it shows us that we can't really second guess God.

We really can't.

I've thought already that the level of knowledge of man vs. angels might play a part. Apparently man had no knowledge of evil before eating from the tree. I assume that is what you mean by innocence vs. responsibility? But if in fact Adam was not deceived, eating of the tree while knowing full well it was wrong, I'm not sure how far we can take the "level-of-knowledge" idea.

Ultimately, even man could not have been forgiven were it not for the sacrifice of God's only begotten Son, the spotless Lamb of God. Might this play a part? Angels cannot die, while our mortal bodies are subject to death. Does our mortality come into play here?

[lesterb]

Were Adam and Eve more like children in their innocence? And the angels like adults? Adam and Eve should have obeyed God simply for the sake that he had told them not to eat of the forbidden fruit. But like children, their curiosity got the best of them. Disobedience was too serious for them to retain their relationship with God without consequences, but it was still different from the deliberate and calculated sin of Lucifer and the angels.

[MaxPC]

My short opinion (I'll spare you the canonical dissertation )
+++
When given Free Will by God, every man and woman was given an opportunity to choose between Obedience to God or Rebellious Sin. Also in Free Will the responsibility for that choice is ours alone.

In short, it's our responsibility to choose a virtuous life of obedience to God or a sinful life of rebellion.