"gay Christian"

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Neto
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Re: "gay Christian"

Post by Neto »

Wade wrote:I see what your saying, but why would we label someone by their temptation?

Why don't we label someone an "Adulterous Christian (celibate)"?

You don't have to have any physical union with another person in order for it to be adultery - according to Jesus Christ.

So I fail to see how we can fit the gay or adulterous together with Christian as an accepted label?

Sin is what separates us from Christ. Where is the call to repentance? Is that not part of helping?
As I understand how the label is being used in the context of this thread, saying a person is a gay celibate Christian is comparable to saying a person is a heterosexual celibate Christian. Both are experiencing temptations which cannot rightfully be fulfilled. The part that is different about these two is the same part that calls for our compassion - that the heterosexual celibate Christian can possibly marry a person to whom he or she is attracted, and not be in sin, while the person who experiences an attraction toward persons of the same gender cannot marry such a person and remain separate from sin. I think that none of us would intentionally use this terminology outside of a context where we are attempting to meet persons with this particular burden of temptation with an approach that does not seem to spell out hatred & rejection. Do you think that a Christian can experience a temptation of this sort? Would you agree that being tempted in this way is not in itself sin? Can a person who is living a victorious Christian experience this temptation? Any other temptation? If temptation is not sin, then there is no call for repentance in that particular situation or event.
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Wade
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Re: "gay Christian"

Post by Wade »

Neto wrote:
Wade wrote:I see what your saying, but why would we label someone by their temptation?

Why don't we label someone an "Adulterous Christian (celibate)"?

You don't have to have any physical union with another person in order for it to be adultery - according to Jesus Christ.

So I fail to see how we can fit the gay or adulterous together with Christian as an accepted label?

Sin is what separates us from Christ. Where is the call to repentance? Is that not part of helping?
As I understand how the label is being used in the context of this thread, saying a person is a gay celibate Christian is comparable to saying a person is a heterosexual celibate Christian. Both are experiencing temptations which cannot rightfully be fulfilled. The part that is different about these two is the same part that calls for our compassion - that the heterosexual celibate Christian can possibly marry a person to whom he or she is attracted, and not be in sin, while the person who experiences an attraction toward persons of the same gender cannot marry such a person and remain separate from sin. I think that none of us would intentionally use this terminology outside of a context where we are attempting to meet persons with this particular burden of temptation with an approach that does not seem to spell out hatred & rejection. Do you think that a Christian can experience a temptation of this sort? Would you agree that being tempted in this way is not in itself sin? Can a person who is living a victorious Christian experience this temptation? Any other temptation? If temptation is not sin, then there is no call for repentance in that particular situation or event.
I answer yes to all your questions, and see where there is no call to repentance in this context. And I appreciate your time to help me with this.

But please bare with me that I am still confused why any Christian might want to be identified or labeled by their temptation?
Openness within the brotherhood is very important and I don't think a temptation should be hidden and maybe that is what some are getting at?
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lesterb
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Re: "gay Christian"

Post by lesterb »

justme wrote:
Neto wrote:
lesterb wrote:Yes it was probably a poor question. :-|
I don't think so. And I don't think that people who find this an area of conflict in their lives would necessarily leave because of that. How will leaving help them deal with the conflict brought on by the temptation? (I am interpreting 'conflict' here as meaning 'to face temptation in this area', not in the sense of 'I don't know if this is right or wrong'. Maybe a different meaning was in focus, and I didn't catch it.) I have never faced this temptation, but I image that some members of our congregations have, and don't tell for some of the same reasons that we don't tell about every type of temptation we ourselves face. But it is probably harder for them, because many people confuse the wrongness (sinfulness) of giving in with the temptation itself. Also, there seems to be the feeling for many that this particular sin is worse than the ones we ourselves are tempted to fall into, and into which we sometimes do fall. So if someone asks for prayer in facing this, a stigma is attached to them. This needed openness is, I believe, the purpose behind this discussion, more than what label should be used for a person in that position. I think that if people really internalize the truth that the temptation is not sin, this may help to create the type of caring community we all want to see in our congregations, and thus more openness in sharing our burdens, so that we can help each other bear up under them.
i was going to ask how you would rephrase it, lester, but i appreciate neto's answer too.
Well, Szdfan made it sound like pretty well every congregation has LGBTQ people attending. I was wondering if its really that common, and how often it actually shows up. I know that it has at times, but I'm still thinking that it isn't as common as he made it sound. But maybe I've just got my head buried in the sand. :-|
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Szdfan
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Re: "gay Christian"

Post by Szdfan »

lesterb wrote:Well, Szdfan made it sound like pretty well every congregation has LGBTQ people attending. I was wondering if its really that common, and how often it actually shows up. I know that it has at times, but I'm still thinking that it isn't as common as he made it sound. But maybe I've just got my head buried in the sand. :-|
I honestly don't know how many closeted gays and lesbians attend church and it's entirely possible that it's not common. According to various studies, the percentage of LGBTQ population in the US is between 3.4 and 3.8 percent. From what I've observed, statistically the church tends to be similar to the rest of society, so my hunch would be that between 3 and 4 percent of American Christians are LGBTQ, even if a specific congregation doesn't have any.

It's also my experience that congregations and individual church members are often really good at hiding what's really going on in their lives, especially when it comes to sex. Considering that many churches are overwhelmingly hostile to LGBTQ and that those who come out could lose both their biological and church families, I believe there is a high probability that many queer Christians are hiding in plain sight.

So I don't know for sure that every church has closeted gays and lesbians, but I suspect that it's more common than people think it is. However, these are my hunches and guesses and I don't have definite evidence for that.
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KingdomBuilder
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Re: "gay Christian"

Post by KingdomBuilder »

I bet the gay presence varies greatly among denominations. I imagine there would be a lot more in charismatic churches, Episcopal/ Anglican, and others.
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Neto
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Re: "gay Christian"

Post by Neto »

Wade wrote:
Neto wrote:
Wade wrote:I see what your saying, but why would we label someone by their temptation?

Why don't we label someone an "Adulterous Christian (celibate)"?

You don't have to have any physical union with another person in order for it to be adultery - according to Jesus Christ.

So I fail to see how we can fit the gay or adulterous together with Christian as an accepted label?

Sin is what separates us from Christ. Where is the call to repentance? Is that not part of helping?
As I understand how the label is being used in the context of this thread, saying a person is a gay celibate Christian is comparable to saying a person is a heterosexual celibate Christian. Both are experiencing temptations which cannot rightfully be fulfilled. The part that is different about these two is the same part that calls for our compassion - that the heterosexual celibate Christian can possibly marry a person to whom he or she is attracted, and not be in sin, while the person who experiences an attraction toward persons of the same gender cannot marry such a person and remain separate from sin. I think that none of us would intentionally use this terminology outside of a context where we are attempting to meet persons with this particular burden of temptation with an approach that does not seem to spell out hatred & rejection. Do you think that a Christian can experience a temptation of this sort? Would you agree that being tempted in this way is not in itself sin? Can a person who is living a victorious Christian experience this temptation? Any other temptation? If temptation is not sin, then there is no call for repentance in that particular situation or event.
I answer yes to all your questions, and see where there is no call to repentance in this context. And I appreciate your time to help me with this.

But please bare with me that I am still confused why any Christian might want to be identified or labeled by their temptation?
Openness within the brotherhood is very important and I don't think a temptation should be hidden and maybe that is what some are getting at?
I have been uneasy with this terminology from the beginning, and it isn't getting any better, so I'm ready to back off. I just thought that using the terminology that the persons involved are most familiar/comfortable with would help in communicating two things: compassion, and secondly, a recognition that all sin is equal, and that temptation is not sin.

I agree that no one should want to self-identify with a term denoting their biggest weakness. (But the perceived "biggest weakness" is often itself only a symptom of another problem.) I just thought that with so much hate talk going around (I'm not talking about this forum), and unfortunately some of it coming from people who claim to be Christians, that this might be a way to avoid the defensiveness that results when a person feels that they are condemned for who they are (or at least who they see themselves as). I'm speaking only of attractions, not actions. Any surrender to any temptation is sin. I suspected from the opening post that the person self-identifying in this way was attempting to create an environment of openness, not an openness to sin, but the type of openness that I understand you to be speaking of as well - not keeping a temptation hidden. (I do think, however, that not every temptation should be mentioned in the open public, but rather within a small group, a more controlled environment.)
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Bootstrap
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Re: "gay Christian"

Post by Bootstrap »

Szdfan wrote:It's also my experience that congregations and individual church members are often really good at hiding what's really going on in their lives, especially when it comes to sex. Considering that many churches are overwhelmingly hostile to LGBTQ and that those who come out could lose both their biological and church families, I believe there is a high probability that many queer Christians are hiding in plain sight.
Yes, and we need to learn how to walk with such people without condemning them for temptation. And I do suspect the percentages are different in such churches - cultural expectations have a strong effect on how people experience almost every aspect of their feelings and relationships. After all, consider how much our experience of these feelings changed with Freud (or much earlier, with Minnesang / Meistersang).
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Bootstrap
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Re: "gay Christian"

Post by Bootstrap »

Neto wrote:I have been uneasy with this terminology from the beginning, and it isn't getting any better, so I'm ready to back off. I just thought that using the terminology that the persons involved are most familiar/comfortable with would help in communicating two things: compassion, and secondly, a recognition that all sin is equal, and that temptation is not sin.
Exactly.

The alternative is to start by saying, "I want you to know that I reject your understanding of who you are and what you feel, and refuse to listen to the words that you choose to describe yourself, so now that we've made that clear, let's talk".
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Wade
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Re: "gay Christian"

Post by Wade »

I certainly don't want to paint the wrong picture but I certainly feel most comfortable talking like this with approaching scripture at face value and don't want to come across as just condemning people.

So here is real life:
My first and my favorite teacher in school taught me from kindergarten up until and including grade 3. She was a firm woman of what I remember being strong in character. She helped shape me having a big influence on a small child.
When I was a teenager I often went over to her house and did outside work for her partner... I wasn't interested in other peoples business or assuming things so I was actually surprised when I was told that they were lesbians. It never changed the way I treated her or her partner.
Then I later became a Christian and you know being a Christian changes the way you treat everybody. My mom asked me, "What about your elementary teacher?" I said, "I hate sin. But I love sinners."

Now we don't go looking for people to get together with and just socialize with that are so different than we are. But for example my dad is not a Christian and denies that there is a God or anything beyond this life. But when my parents come over my children play with him and I talk with him - not because I want to condone sin but because I love him and they do too. It brings tears of joy to share that nearly every night at family devotions that one of our daughters remembers to pray for unbelieving relatives. There has been changes but things are slow - patience allows God to work.

It is because of His love and mercy that I had opportunity to repent and if my elementary teacher (which is in no different place than my dad) came over I would very much enjoy the opportunity to introduce my family and talk.

I don't want to convert anyone. I want everyone to walk closer with God and Him to do the converting.

Because He first loved us.
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Josh
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Re: "gay Christian"

Post by Josh »

justme wrote:
lesterb wrote:
Szdfan wrote: Here is my concern: pretending that LGBTQ people don't exist in the church ignores and makes invisible what the people in our pews are actually experiencing in their lives. There are gays and lesbians in our churches regardless of whether the church acknowledges them.
This makes me curious.

How many people on MN know of LGBTQ people in their congregation?

And if so, are they members?
the "don't ask, don't tell" mentality sort of takes care of knowing if there are any conflicted souls in the church.
and the ones who are conflicted enough to do something about it, leave.
which brings us right back to szd's statement.

how can someone be helped, if no one knows what the problem is?
Do we need to take a census of everyone at church who is having trouble with lusting after other men's wives? Or perhaps do we need to find out everyone who prefers blondes vs redheads?

Ultimately, each of us is responsible to be chaste, and most of us will have to deal with attractions that can't be acted on in a healthy, God-honouring way. I think a better approach would be simply to make sure we minister well to single or divorced people, who, whether they have same or opposite sex attraction, are not experiencing romantic love or marriage and many of them might not ever get to experience that.
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