Are We Saved By Our Acts Of Obedience?

General Christian Theology

Are we justified before God by our acts of obedience?

 
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GaryK
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Re: Are We Saved By Our Acts Of Obedience?

Post by GaryK »

Sudsy wrote:
GaryK wrote:
Sudsy wrote: Amen. We love God and that should be the driver of our obedience.
I agree completely. But isn't it possible for the driver of an emphasis on obedience to be ones love for God? Obedience is not a scary word.
I view the driver to be the two commandments that all other actions come from. A focus on these two loving God and others. Obedience is not a scary word to one who believes in a loving Father that wants the best life possible for His child. Love is made real by actions. If we love Him we will obey although it will be an imperfect obedience. I just don't believe these imperfections in our attempts to obey and how we understand what to obey, should we fail here and there, removes us from God's family but it seems others do.
Is it important to obey the two commandments you mention?

Who is claiming that failings here and there remove us from God's family?
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Sudsy
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Re: Are We Saved By Our Acts Of Obedience?

Post by Sudsy »

GaryK wrote:
Sudsy wrote:
GaryK wrote: I agree completely. But isn't it possible for the driver of an emphasis on obedience to be ones love for God? Obedience is not a scary word.
I view the driver to be the two commandments that all other actions come from. A focus on these two loving God and others. Obedience is not a scary word to one who believes in a loving Father that wants the best life possible for His child. Love is made real by actions. If we love Him we will obey although it will be an imperfect obedience. I just don't believe these imperfections in our attempts to obey and how we understand what to obey, should we fail here and there, removes us from God's family but it seems others do.
Is it important to obey the two commandments you mention?

Before I respond, hope you had a good Sunday gathering. We had a wonderful lesson today on forgiveness. I have lots of notes to go over and then during the week we meet in a care group to hear the sermon again from a recording and discuss it. Perhaps I'll start a thread on forgiveness and see who here is interested.

Anyway, to your question - Yes, for sure. Has anyone but Jesus done this perfectly ? No, not one. In this human form we cannot anymore do this than those in the OT could keep the 613 laws they were commanded to keep. It should be a desire in our hearts and a co-operative effort we make with the Holy Spirit's enabling but I believe we must admit perfect obedience is not possible and is not required to 'remain in the Kingdom'.


Who is claiming that failings here and there remove us from God's family?

Sorry if I mis-understood your comment here in a previous post -
One can't be a part of this Kingdom without obeying Jesus' command to be born again but neither can one remain in the Kingdom if there is an unwillingness to submit to the rules of the Kingdom. Both require obedience in order to be saved.


I took this to mean that if in some area of our lives we are unwilling to submit to a 'rule' of the Kingdom, then we cannot remain in the Kingdom. When talking about the OT law James says 'For the person who keeps all of the laws except one is as guilty as a person who has broken all of God's laws.' If this is carried over into the New Covenant, then none of us will be saved.

Perhaps we view these 'rules of the Kingdom' in a different way. I believe my degree of obedience in all areas of those two encompassing commandments will be used to judge my works and rewards as a believer. My salvation, although related, is not based on how perfect this obedience is followed. The only area I believe will remove my membership from the Kingdom is if I turn my back on (quit believing) in the primary points of the Gospel that Paul states as the Gospel that saves us. I am saved by grace through faith and not according to my works, lest I should boast. I can't do enough works to become saved nor can I do enough works to stay saved.

Did I mis-understand what I was attempting to defend ? If so, my apology.
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Sudsy
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Re: Are We Saved By Our Acts Of Obedience?

Post by Sudsy »

GaryK wrote:
Sudsy wrote:
GaryK wrote: Have you considered when in the course of the evening Jesus washed their feet? It wasn't when they entered the house but after supper. I don't think Jesus was doing the cultural practice of that day.
That is true but Jesus was using a common practise of that day to make a point. The common, every day foot washing was not to wash the feet of someone on the same level of society as yourself, a peer level. Servants and women did this role. Paul speaks of widows doing that to the saints as a good qualifying act. Jesus used this common practise of that day to show His disciples that this was not a Kingdom way to treat each other. We are to humbly serve each other. There is to be no such thing as being 'greater' than another in God's Kingdom.
These are the points I like to think about as I'm literally washing the feet of my brother. I love Jesus' example of humility and want to be like him in every way possible.

I grew up in a church that occasionally did foot washing. As a child I heard some things that made it sound like it was some kind of humorous act and joking went on about whose feet they might have to wash. It did not come across to me as anything spiritual that made sense. But I have since talked to a couple of believers who did this for the very first time and it had a very emotional affect on them. They couldn't explain why but they thought there must be something about this act that has some deep spiritual meaning. And perhaps as you say, it is entering into an act that Jesus did for a specific reason.

I admit I don't know of such a personal, modern day equivalent involving touching another person physically as an act of humility and servant hood. I wonder if the physical touching aspect brings out a closeness that can't be achieved through other self sacrifical ways without physical touching.

Sudsy wrote:But if we are to be literally obedient as the practise is explained, then should it not be done on the night of the Passover day after a supper and perhaps men only ? In our ways of obeying some take things more literal than others and so do those who do it differently or in another way, say more related to our culture today, are they being disobedient to scripture ?
I don't think it's quite this complicated. The way in which you ask these questions implies that obedience is the only possible driver for this practice. Why can't it be a love for Jesus and our brothers/neighbors?

It can and it might be my early childhood experience that thought it was more of a 'have to' than a 'want to' act. I certainly don't think it is wrong to do but I also don't think dodging it will result in being kicked out of the Kingdom.
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GaryK
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Re: Are We Saved By Our Acts Of Obedience?

Post by GaryK »

GaryK wrote:Who is claiming that failings here and there remove us from God's family?
Sudsy wrote:Sorry if I mis-understood your comment here in a previous post -
One can't be a part of this Kingdom without obeying Jesus' command to be born again but neither can one remain in the Kingdom if there is an unwillingness to submit to the rules of the Kingdom. Both require obedience in order to be saved.
I took this to mean that if in some area of our lives we are unwilling to submit to a 'rule' of the Kingdom, then we cannot remain in the Kingdom. When talking about the OT law James says 'For the person who keeps all of the laws except one is as guilty as a person who has broken all of God's laws.' If this is carried over into the New Covenant, then none of us will be saved.
Jesus said "If you love me, keep my commandments". That seems to be a pretty important Kingdom rule. You can't claim to love Jesus and be unwilling to submit at the same time. If submission is what gets us in then it would follow that submission also keeps us in. I say this recognizing that no one is ever fully mature immediately upon being born again. But it's a dangerous thing to be made aware of Kingdom rules that we are not following and then not to submit to them.
Sudsy wrote:Perhaps we view these 'rules of the Kingdom' in a different way. I believe my degree of obedience in all areas of those two encompassing commandments will be used to judge my works and rewards as a believer. My salvation, although related, is not based on how perfect this obedience is followed. The only area I believe will remove my membership from the Kingdom is if I turn my back on (quit believing) in the primary points of the Gospel that Paul states as the Gospel that saves us. I am saved by grace through faith and not according to my works, lest I should boast. I can't do enough works to become saved nor can I do enough works to stay saved.
I suppose the people Jesus is referencing here would say that "works" are pretty important to staying saved.
Matthew 25:31-46 NKJV 31 "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 "All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 "And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 "Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 'for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 'I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.' 37 "Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 38 'When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 'Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?' 40 "And the King will answer and say to them, 'Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.' 41 "Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 'for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 'I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.' 44 "Then they also will answer Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?' 45 "Then He will answer them, saying, 'Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.' 46 "And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
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Sudsy
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Re: Are We Saved By Our Acts Of Obedience?

Post by Sudsy »

GaryK wrote: Jesus said "If you love me, keep my commandments". That seems to be a pretty important Kingdom rule. You can't claim to love Jesus and be unwilling to submit at the same time. If submission is what gets us in then it would follow that submission also keeps us in. I say this recognizing that no one is ever fully mature immediately upon being born again. But it's a dangerous thing to be made aware of Kingdom rules that we are not following and then not to submit to them.

I suppose the people Jesus is referencing here would say that "works" are pretty important to staying saved.
Matthew 25:31-46 NKJV 31 "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 "All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 "And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 "Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 'for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 'I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.' 37 "Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 38 'When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 'Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?' 40 "And the King will answer and say to them, 'Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.' 41 "Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 'for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 'I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.' 44 "Then they also will answer Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?' 45 "Then He will answer them, saying, 'Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.' 46 "And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
And this is where we differ. If I understand you correctly you believe that submitting to everything we believe the NT says as a command is how we 'keep saved'. I don't. In the above story I read this as Jesus saying the 'righteous' (believers) are the one's who do good deeds as an outcome of their faith in Christ. Jesus gives some examples of what these deeds look like. Those on His 'left hand' (the Democrats :lol: , said jokingly) have a dead faith as James would put it. A faith that will not save us. They have not truly repented as repentance is a turning to follow Christ and good deeds are the results that follow a changed heart (being born again).

You said - "But it's a dangerous thing to be made aware of Kingdom rules that we are not following and then not to submit to them." I agree but not to the point of keeping us 'in the Kingdom'. When we do not submit in some area (and imo and view of the NT commanding statements, none of us submit fully to Jesus as Lord) then scripture says God disciplines those He loves. He doesn't disown us. But we may go through some hard lessons to learn obedience. Been there, done that, still going through that process.
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GaryK
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Re: Are We Saved By Our Acts Of Obedience?

Post by GaryK »

Sudsy wrote:
GaryK wrote: Jesus said "If you love me, keep my commandments". That seems to be a pretty important Kingdom rule. You can't claim to love Jesus and be unwilling to submit at the same time. If submission is what gets us in then it would follow that submission also keeps us in. I say this recognizing that no one is ever fully mature immediately upon being born again. But it's a dangerous thing to be made aware of Kingdom rules that we are not following and then not to submit to them.

I suppose the people Jesus is referencing here would say that "works" are pretty important to staying saved.
Matthew 25:31-46 NKJV 31 "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 "All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 "And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 "Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 'for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 'I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.' 37 "Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 38 'When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 'Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?' 40 "And the King will answer and say to them, 'Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.' 41 "Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 'for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 'I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.' 44 "Then they also will answer Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?' 45 "Then He will answer them, saying, 'Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.' 46 "And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
And this is where we differ. If I understand you correctly you believe that submitting to everything we believe the NT says as a command is how we 'keep saved'. I don't. In the above story I read this as Jesus saying the 'righteous' (believers) are the one's who do good deeds as an outcome of their faith in Christ. Jesus gives some examples of what these deeds look like. Those on His 'left hand' (the Democrats :lol: , said jokingly) have a dead faith as James would put it. A faith that will not save us. They have not truly repented as repentance is a turning to follow Christ and good deeds are the results that follow a changed heart (being born again).

You said - "But it's a dangerous thing to be made aware of Kingdom rules that we are not following and then not to submit to them." I agree but not to the point of keeping us 'in the Kingdom'. When we do not submit in some area (and imo and view of the NT commanding statements, none of us submit fully to Jesus as Lord) then scripture says God disciplines those He loves. He doesn't disown us. But we may go through some hard lessons to learn obedience. Been there, done that, still going through that process.
But after disciplining us suppose we still refuse to submit. Do you believe we can ever get to the point where God says "you are no longer part of my Kingdom"?

You have basically described OSAS.
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Re: Are We Saved By Our Acts Of Obedience?

Post by GaryK »

Sudsy, along with my last post I want to add that I once heard a OSAS preacher state that after you have been born again you can commit any sin from the sin of adultery to the sin of murder and it will not affect your eternal destiny.

You say that you agree that it's dangerous to refuse to submit to Kingdom rules but what is dangerous about it if doing so can't lead to being removed from the Kingdom?
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Sudsy
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Re: Are We Saved By Our Acts Of Obedience?

Post by Sudsy »

GaryK wrote: But after disciplining us suppose we still refuse to submit. Do you believe we can ever get to the point where God says "you are no longer part of my Kingdom"?

Yes, I do. That would be the case where we still having free choices, chose not to believe in Christ as Saviour and Lord and as it were, give back the free gift of salvation. If that is our choice then God is not forcing us to stay in His Kingdom. But I suspect most of us have area(s) in our life we are not submitted to God. We can sing 'I surrender all' but that doesn't mean we are. Some of these areas in scripture we give our own interpretations to and what obedience means. For instance, it is commanded to eagerly desire spiritual gifts and it gives some order to which ones are most beneficial. Have you heard a sermon recently on obeying that ? Or it may be another area where we know what it says, we just chose not to do it. We cherry pick in our obedience. Does that put us in a position of God disowning us ? I don't believe it does. But not obeying can really keep us from the abundant life Jesus wants for us.

You have basically described OSAS.

I would disagree as the OSAS people I know believe if you are truly saved you would never turn your back on Christ. Those who appear to turn away, they believe, were not truly born again in the first place. I have assurance of salvation because I trust in what Jesus did, not in my performance as His child.
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Re: Are We Saved By Our Acts Of Obedience?

Post by Sudsy »

GaryK wrote:Sudsy, along with my last post I want to add that I once heard a OSAS preacher state that after you have been born again you can commit any sin from the sin of adultery to the sin of murder and it will not affect your eternal destiny.

You say that you agree that it's dangerous to refuse to submit to Kingdom rules but what is dangerous about it if doing so can't lead to being removed from the Kingdom?
What is dangerous is what God might allow to happen to get your attention to submit. The Christians in the church at Corinth were mis-treating other Christians when they came together and got this warning when they took communion when they were not loving others as themselves and not properly regarding Christ's body (bold mine) - "That is why you should examine yourself before eating the bread and drinking the cup. For if you eat the bread or drink the cup without honoring the body of Christ, you are eating and drinking God’s judgment upon yourself. That is why many of you are weak and sick and some have even died.

There are consequences, even an early death, if a believer takes obedience lightly. Sounds dangerous to me.
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GaryK
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Re: Are We Saved By Our Acts Of Obedience?

Post by GaryK »

Sudsy wrote:
GaryK wrote: But after disciplining us suppose we still refuse to submit. Do you believe we can ever get to the point where God says "you are no longer part of my Kingdom"?

Yes, I do. That would be the case where we still having free choices, chose not to believe in Christ as Saviour and Lord and as it were, give back the free gift of salvation. If that is our choice then God is not forcing us to stay in His Kingdom. But I suspect most of us have area(s) in our life we are not submitted to God. We can sing 'I surrender all' but that doesn't mean we are. Some of these areas in scripture we give our own interpretations to and what obedience means. For instance, it is commanded to eagerly desire spiritual gifts and it gives some order to which ones are most beneficial. Have you heard a sermon recently on obeying that ? Or it may be another area where we know what it says, we just chose not to do it. We cherry pick in our obedience. Does that put us in a position of God disowning us ? I don't believe it does. But not obeying can really keep us from the abundant life Jesus wants for us.

You have basically described OSAS.

I would disagree as the OSAS people I know believe if you are truly saved you would never turn your back on Christ. Those who appear to turn away, they believe, were not truly born again in the first place. I have assurance of salvation because I trust in what Jesus did, not in my performance as His child.
So then I think I'm hearing you say that not submitting to Kingdom rules can affect our salvation. I thought earlier you were saying the two are separate.

The OSAS preacher I heard in a debate clearly stated something different than the OSAS people you know.
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