Proselytization

[Josh]

The Pharisees were supposed to be keeping the law. The reason Jesus criticised them is because they weren't obeying/keeping the law, not because Jesus was against the law.

"Think not that I came to abolish the law."

[Sudsy]

The Pharisees were supposed to be keeping the law. The reason Jesus criticised them is because they weren't obeying/keeping the law, not because Jesus was against the law.

"Think not that I came to abolish the law."

As the NLT puts it -"Don’t misunderstand why I have come. I did not come to abolish the law of Moses or the writings of the prophets. No, I came to accomplish their purpose."

Some of the Pharisees thought Jesus was teaching that they were to ignore the law (i.e. Matthew 12:2). But Jesus told them that was not His role but rather His role was to accomplish all that the Old Testament foretold about Him and to complete all the righteousness that the Old Testament required. Jesus was the only one who accomplished that by a life of sinless, perfect righteousness. Then we read in Hebrews 8:6-8 that the Old Covenant was not perfect and we are now under a New Covenant with 'better promises'.

The Pharisees created more to follow than the Talmud called the Mishnah, originally a set of oral laws that got put into writing. I believe this still happens today when certain scripture texts are expounded upon in conduct guidelines and church rules with some Christian groups. They become an additional set of written 'rules of conduct' which is deemed as necessary to explain how one must apply certain scriptural terms.

Some may say they simply follow what Jesus said but when you look closer Jesus did not give such details in some of these areas. My personal belief is that we have been each given the Holy Spirit to teach us in the way that we should apply scripture and if we all fully relied on Him, we would know the truth to live by. However, as Paul says, we now see through a glass darkly and only know in part.

Whoops getting sidetracked from proselytizing. Studying modern day Phariseeism is, I think, a good study though.

[Josh]

What I really don’t see at all is that Jesus taught us not to obey the teachings in the NT books.

[Sudsy]

What I really don’t see at all is that Jesus taught us not to obey the teachings in the NT books.

So, for example, are we to - obey to tithe as Jesus said in Matthew 23:23-24 -“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.

On another older thread you said 'Generally speaking, we (conservative Mennonites) don't view the Old Testament tithe as a literal, mandatory command for today. It can be a guideline.'

Seems to me there are things to obey under the New Covenant (NC) that even at times go beyond the practises Jesus supported in the OC but are to be done not as a 'have to' but rather as a 'want to'. I was raised more with 10% tithing on gross income was a 'have to' but I believe under the NC we are not limited by any number or percent but what is more important is the attitude of our heart in what we give.

[ken_sylvania]

I was raised more with 10% tithing on gross income was a 'have to' but I believe under the NC we are not limited by any number or percent but what is more important is the attitude of our heart in what we give.

That's an interesting statement. Were you taught growing up that tithing should be limited to 10%?
I agree giving shouldn't be limited by any number or percent but I think for most of us if we give like Jesus taught it will be more than 10% of our personal income.

[Josh]

Overall, we just don’t view ourselves obligated to obey the entire OT law, but it is obvious some things are things Christians must do: thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not bear false witness, etc.

Commandments in the NT do seem to be obligations. Otherwise why would they be there at all?

[Bootstrap]

I think that proselytizing in a way to a way that leads people further from God is very bad, and there is a danger of that happening.

What does doing it wrong look like? What does doing it right look like?

II think the problem was not about the way they were proselytizing, but what they were proselytizing to. A judgemental, self-righteous religion that tore other people down. A religion far away from the first and second commandments to love God with all your heart and soul and mind and strength and to love your neighbor as yourself.

[Sudsy]

I was raised more with 10% tithing on gross income was a 'have to' but I believe under the NC we are not limited by any number or percent but what is more important is the attitude of our heart in what we give.

That's an interesting statement. Were you taught growing up that tithing should be limited to 10%?
I agree giving shouldn't be limited by any number or percent but I think for most of us if we give like Jesus taught it will be more than 10% of our personal income.

To your question, 'no'.

I was raised that there are both tithes and offerings. The tithe was a base for giving of a 10% of gross pay cheque (gross income, what one would put on the gross income line on your taxes) but then offerings were all kinds of additional giving. Pentecostals, at times and in my youth, were known for sometimes having more than one offering for a cause and after the offering was counted, if it wasn't the amount desired to be reached, they would have another and another, in the same meeting, until they met that goal. To me, that can cross the line of giving out of necessity (2 Cor 9:7) AMP

Let each one give [thoughtfully and with purpose] just as he has decided in his heart, not grudgingly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver [and delights in the one whose heart is in his gift].

When I was a youngster and got a weekly allowance of money to spend, my parents would tell me that 10% of that allowance should be put in the offering plate on a Sunday. Also our church 'tithed the tithe'. They would take 10% of all tithes given and give 10% of that to foreign mission causes.

[ohio jones]

And if foreign missions isn't adequately funded, can they pass the plate again?

[Sudsy]

And if foreign missions isn't adequately funded, can they pass the plate again?

In my background, yes, they would pass the plate again, to add to the 10% given to foreign missions from the tithe, at times. There was often extended appeals for money from all kinds of special causes. They would sometimes call these 'love offerings' and send a gift offering to some missionary that was going through some kind of special situation. I don't know if Pentecostals are still big givers but it would appear by the size of some of their churches with all kinds of modern expensive equipment and other assessories, that they take in considerable amounts in their offerings. We also were taught that our base tithing is to be given to the local church and not to other, perhaps a variety, of Christian causes.

Personally I believe that NT giving is up to the giver and God knows what we are able to give and where our heart is toward giving money.

Well, I best get back on thread topic.