The Israeli state?

[Nomad]

My perspective is that many Israelites accepted Christ and indeed created what is now the church. They were the first Christians.

The unbelievers perished in 70 AD when the temple was destroyed, never to be rebuilt again. The continuation of “Israel” in the church and Christians, going all the way back to those first Jews who believed.

The modern day state of Israel has nothing at all to do with biblical prophecy or God’s promises - it is a country just like Lebanon or Syria or Jordan or Egypt or Gaza or the West Bank. It has no special spiritual significance.

That's precisely the way I see it.

The incredible amount of energy that has been expended by many Christians in the last couple of generations in support of modern Israel, the study of prophetic and apocalyptic writings in the Bible with a view to read current events back into the text, and the unbelievable proliferation of books, conferences, sermons, and discussion on the topic have all done little to nothing to advance the kingdom of heaven. All this may even have been one of the greatest detriments to the Christian faith in the recent past, who knows.

I understand your frustration! Although from a different perspective.... For me its less about "modern Israel" and more about reading Gods intentions for the "how" he plans to restore His Creation from Genesis to Revelations. If Israel is spelled out in the Bible as a integral part of His plan (no matter how sinful they are) then it must be important too Him and thus its important to me. I dont think this makes me a Zionist but perhaps you disagree. I can appreciate how Christians can work together in love and community as they help their neighbors, feed the poor, and spread Christ to the world in a unified effort of good deeds. But I think the reason we put so much energy into these questions is because we would like to all be unified in theology and how we read the Bible as well. I think that is a noble thing to pursue.

So, if I'm hearing how you and Josh interpret this. You believe that God is working through Rome to destroy the city of Jerusalem in AD70 for the purpose of crushing the unbelieving Jews. Are we to believe all the believing Jews were saved in this massacre and the unbelieving slain, thus leaving the remnant? Or does the remnant represent the "True Israel" of Jews and Gentiles, as previously mentioned, who survive. If so, how does it explain the churches persecution following all this. I have a hard time believing the blessings for Israel as represented in the OT equate to the Church as the true Israel who then also experienced massacre as well. It doesn't make sense for me to believe that God looks down happily as His Christian citizens suffer at the hands of persecutors even if they persevere through to death.

Also, how would this work with Zechariah 12:8 which I stated earlier? Are we to take it that where it says the Lord would defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem. It really means He's going to gut it with the Roman army?

[Josh]

So, if I'm hearing how you and Josh interpret this. You believe that God is working through Rome to destroy the city of Jerusalem in AD70 for the purpose of crushing the unbelieving Jews. Are we to believe all the believing Jews were saved in this massacre and the unbelieving slain, thus leaving the remnant?

Yes. The Christians had long since fled the city, and Christians back then refused to pick up arms and fight.

Jesus spoke of this:

When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city.

The temple was utterly desecrated. God no longer lived in the Ark of the Covenant there.

Or does the remnant represent the "True Israel" of Jews and Gentiles, as previously mentioned, who survive. If so, how does it explain the churches persecution following all this. I have a hard time believing the blessings for Israel as represented in the OT equate to the Church as the true Israel who then also experienced massacre as well. It doesn't make sense for me to believe that God looks down happily as His Christian citizens suffer at the hands of persecutors even if they persevere through to death.

Well, Jesus said that all who follow him would be persecuted. But we all get the gift of eternal life, and a promise that the gates of hell won't prevail against the church.

Also, how would this work with Zechariah 12:8 which I stated earlier? Are we to take it that where it says the Lord would defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem. It really means He's going to gut it with the Roman army?

It means those prophecies have already been fulfilled. Jerusalem was a thriving city when Jesus came to the earth, but after he resurrected, there is no longer any "covenant" with a natural secular nation-state of Israel. The covenant now extends to all who choose to follow Jesus and be part of the continuation of Israel, which is now opened up to all of mankind.

[Nomad]

So, if I'm hearing how you and Josh interpret this. You believe that God is working through Rome to destroy the city of Jerusalem in AD70 for the purpose of crushing the unbelieving Jews. Are we to believe all the believing Jews were saved in this massacre and the unbelieving slain, thus leaving the remnant?

Yes. The Christians had long since fled the city, and Christians back then refused to pick up arms and fight.

Jesus spoke of this:

When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city.

The temple was utterly desecrated. God no longer lived in the Ark of the Covenant there.

Or does the remnant represent the "True Israel" of Jews and Gentiles, as previously mentioned, who survive. If so, how does it explain the churches persecution following all this. I have a hard time believing the blessings for Israel as represented in the OT equate to the Church as the true Israel who then also experienced massacre as well. It doesn't make sense for me to believe that God looks down happily as His Christian citizens suffer at the hands of persecutors even if they persevere through to death.

Well, Jesus said that all who follow him would be persecuted. But we all get the gift of eternal life, and a promise that the gates of hell won't prevail against the church.

Also, how would this work with Zechariah 12:8 which I stated earlier? Are we to take it that where it says the Lord would defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem. It really means He's going to gut it with the Roman army?

It means those prophecies have already been fulfilled. Jerusalem was a thriving city when Jesus came to the earth, but after he resurrected, there is no longer any "covenant" with a natural secular nation-state of Israel. The covenant now extends to all who choose to follow Jesus and be part of the continuation of Israel, which is now opened up to all of mankind.

Just so I understand you clearly. You believe ALL the unbelieving Jews were slain at that moment leaving ONLY believing Jews...including Josephus?

[Judas Maccabeus]

My perspective is that many Israelites accepted Christ and indeed created what is now the church. They were the first Christians.

The unbelievers perished in 70 AD when the temple was destroyed, never to be rebuilt again. The continuation of “Israel” in the church and Christians, going all the way back to those first Jews who believed.

The modern day state of Israel has nothing at all to do with biblical prophecy or God’s promises - it is a country just like Lebanon or Syria or Jordan or Egypt or Gaza or the West Bank. It has no special spiritual significance.

And is full of a combination of essentially atheistic seculars and believers in a made up religion that was posited as a replacement for the true religion that God prescribed, commonly called Rabbinic Judaism.

[Josh]

Just so I understand you clearly. You believe ALL the unbelieving Jews were slain at that moment leaving ONLY believing Jews...including Josephus?

I don't have any idea of ALL of them were slain. I am simply saying that those who decided to stay and "defend" the temple, and attempt to fight a war, were not believers. And they were utterly forsaken. God did not come to their aid. One of the Romans who fought them told his troops not to take any glory in winning the battle, because "their God has abandoned them".

The believing Jews are the ones who formed the church and formed early Christianity. Some of them would have been the 5,000 who believed in Acts 2, but many more believed after that. These are the true Israel, and continue to be to this day.

"Jewish" is just an ethnicity now. Like saying Dutch, Xhosa, or Banawha. It has no special significance in biblical prophecy or God's covenant with peoples anymore.

[Josh]

And is full of a combination of essentially atheistic seculars and believers in a made up religion that was posited as a replacement for the true religion that God prescribed, commonly called Rabbinic Judaism.

One of the more interesting groups are the Samaritans - all 900 of them. About half are in the West Bank and the rest in Israel proper. They still maintain the ancient Samaritan belief system including preserving their scriptures. Interestingly, their scriptural texts often agree with the LXX in places where it doesn't agree with the Masoretic text - which is one reason why I claim the Masoretic text has corruptions in it.

They have much more of a claim to the land there than anyone else, particularly in light of their faithfulness to keep worshipping at the same mountain for the last 3,500 years.

[Judas Maccabeus]

And is full of a combination of essentially atheistic seculars and believers in a made up religion that was posited as a replacement for the true religion that God prescribed, commonly called Rabbinic Judaism.

One of the more interesting groups are the Samaritans - all 900 of them. About half are in the West Bank and the rest in Israel proper. They still maintain the ancient Samaritan belief system including preserving their scriptures. Interestingly, their scriptural texts often agree with the LXX in places where it doesn't agree with the Masoretic text - which is one reason why I claim the Masoretic text has corruptions in it.

They have much more of a claim to the land there than anyone else, particularly in light of their faithfulness to keep worshipping at the same mountain for the last 3,500 years.

Interesting group. Really hard to get up there, at least when I was there. Even harder to find out exactly what they have in their "temple." My friends at Jerusalem University College think they have a priceless trove of manuscripts, that outsiders can't get access to.

[Josh]

Interesting group. Really hard to get up there, at least when I was there. Even harder to find out exactly what they have in their "temple." My friends at Jerusalem University College think they have a priceless trove of manuscripts, that outsiders can't get access to.

Yes. They end up worshipping at a mountaintop near Nablus. It is a miracle the relevant authorities still let them do so.

At some point, scholars have been able to copy their manuscripts. They are truly amazing. They claim some of them are original (3,600 years old). They have painstakingly copied the rest, which are still in a much older alphabet than what we would think of as Hebrew. It looks like this:



Most scholars agree it is a much older text than the Masoretic.

[MattY]

For me its less about "modern Israel" and more about reading Gods intentions for the "how" he plans to restore His Creation from Genesis to Revelations.

Well put. I think there are indications of a return to the land of Israel, and that a Jewish temple will be rebuilt prior to the glorious appearing of Christ (not under God's approval, and not the same as the one in Ez. 40). Their current presence in the land could be a buildup to something of more clear prophetic significance, or it might not be. I think it may be one of God's mercies, one of the ways He's holding out His hands to them. The current state of Israel could fall or be removed and it wouldn't or shouldn't change my interpretation of prophecy. But politically, I think political Zionism is correct and Israel has a right to exist. Muslim Arab culture is where actual advocacy of terrorism and genocide is mainstream.

[Nomad]

For me its less about "modern Israel" and more about reading Gods intentions for the "how" he plans to restore His Creation from Genesis to Revelations.

Well put. I think there are indications of a return to the land of Israel, and that a Jewish temple will be rebuilt prior to the glorious appearing of Christ (not under God's approval, and not the same as the one in Ez. 40). Their current presence in the land could be a buildup to something of more clear prophetic significance, or it might not be. I think it may be one of God's mercies, one of the ways He's holding out His hands to them. The current state of Israel could fall or be removed and it wouldn't or shouldn't change my interpretation of prophecy. But politically, I think political Zionism is correct and Israel has a right to exist. Muslim Arab culture is where actual advocacy of terrorism and genocide is mainstream.

I would agree as well. The fact that it states in Dan. 9:27 that the prince who is to come (I would view this as the man of lawlessness or antichrist) will make a covenant with Israel that will be set for one week (7 years) would indicate to me that Israel will have to have some type of political presence in the Holy land in order for this covenant to be made. Which could very likely be the current state of Israel...but wouldn't have to be. If Israel were eliminated from the land tomorrow this all could still take place at a future date according to Daniels prophecy. Thats how I would interpret it. I also would see a temple being built but not the Ezekiel temple. That one would appear to me to take place in the Millennial reign.