Evil and Violence

[Josh]

I’m not responsible for money taken from me by force.

However, there is a sound case to be made that Christians should seek to minimise the amount of tax they owe in order to not fund wars. An obvious way to do this is to simply make less money.

[Ken]

Best I can tell Jesus told us to pay our taxes - I don't think I'm responsible for what the government decides to do with the money. I agree that the man who votes for and supports the politicians who take the country to war bears responsibility for the war.

In a republic and a democracy, you are as responsible as anyone else for what the government does with your money. Even if you choose not to vote or engage. That is the nature of living in a democracy.

Taxes are not my money. If the government does anything with my money against my will I'm not responsible for it.

The government is the people that you and your fellow citizens elected. You have just as much culpability in the decisions that they make as some cook on a Navy vessel does when it comes to the decisions that his military leadership makes.

[RZehr]

I’m not responsible for money taken from me by force.

However, there is a sound case to be made that Christians should seek to minimise the amount of tax they owe in order to not fund wars. An obvious way to do this is to simply make less money.

If we are responsible for war money, do we get credit for welfare? I don’t think so, in either case. Assuming welfare, helping people is a good thing, then should we make lots of money in order to pay more taxes, so more people can get welfare?

I think the minute we pay any mandatory taxes, we are neither responsible for the bad, or bless for the good that money is used for.

Same with the private sector. If I earn some money by selling groceries to, say a bank robber, the bank robber does not get to spiritually launder that money just because I used that money for something really good. Any blessing I may receive is mine alone, no credit goes to the bank robber just because he is who I received it from.

And if I honestly work hard, and buy groceries from a farmers market, and that farmer then takes that cash to a strip club, I am in no way culpable for that, simply because I bought veggies from him.

Once money changes hands, that is the end of it. There is no fiduciary pyramid scheme, where every dollars use is fractionally backtracked to everyone who ever spent it.

This idea of being responsible for military expenditure via compulsory taxes, I think, could be traced not to any Biblical principle, but instead to modern peace activists and boycotting mentalities, and ultimately is a watered down version of using force to implement governmental policy change. And as non-resistant Mennonites, protesting the government is not historically our deal.

Key to what I’m saying is the compulsory aspect, I wouldn’t feel right voluntarily buying war bonds.

[Ernie]

The government is the people that you and your fellow citizens elected. You have just as much culpability in the decisions that they make as some cook on a Navy vessel does when it comes to the decisions that his military leadership makes.

Not if I didn't help elect a government.
I would prefer a government that respects Christians and gives them options for declining involvement in anything they don't want to be involved in for conscience sake. (including only funding those projects that I care about) This wouldn't mean that I could shirk my responsibility to contribute to the common good in other ways.
As it is, I live in a democracy and the NT doesn't give me any option for opting out of paying taxes. I suppose I could include a letter with each check I write, appealing that my money not be used for defense purposes. It would then be up to them to decide what to do with my appeal.

[barnhart]

Rzehr, I generally follow your position in practice, however I don't judge believers who are burdened by their entanglement in the world's greatest war machinery. Here are some of the reasons I sympathize with them.

If we are responsible for war money, do we get credit for welfare? I don’t think so, in either case. Assuming welfare, helping people is a good thing, then should we make lots of money in order to pay more taxes, so more people can get welfare?

The credit you get is living in a society that has an elevated regard for human life, and a sense that on some level we are our brothers keepers, which is no small thing. If these values were stripped out, I don't think society would be improved. But I agree with your point it won't help you earn your personal salvation from judgement.

Once money changes hands, that is the end of it....

This fits well with a protestant, hyper individualist view of personal salvation and classical Adam Smith type capitalism money theory. And, I see some truth there to the extent that each man is judged by his own ethics, not his neighbors. But the older I get the more I suspect money is not only a simple commodity to be traded, but also a share in a disordered social system. This is why Jesus warns against it in absolute terms. Buying into a disordered system does indeed have lasting consequences.

This idea of being responsible for military expenditure via compulsory taxes, I think, could be traced not to any Biblical principle, but instead to modern peace activists and boycotting mentalities, and ultimately is a watered down version of using force to implement governmental policy change. And as non-resistant Mennonites, protesting the government is not historically our deal.

There is truth here but I think a bit overstated. What about loving your neighbor, that is a well established biblical principle. I have some respect for the Russian protesters who dare to say publicly they do not support war on Ukraine. I would like to see more Gazans publicly denounce Hamas and say "Not in my name." When my Vietnamese friend in college asked about my family's involvement in "the war" (as they call it,"the American war"), it was a blessing to say my father refused military service. Not all resistance needs to tied to policy change, it can stand alone as a moral signpost.

And as non-resistant Mennonites, protesting the government is not historically our deal.

Yes, but also remember we have a record of lobbying for policy change for our benefit but drawing the line at lobbying for policies that benefit others. I feel unsettled about that position.

[Josh]

The government is the people that you and your fellow citizens elected. You have just as much culpability in the decisions that they make as some cook on a Navy vessel does when it comes to the decisions that his military leadership makes.

No, it isn’t, because I never consented to being in charge of making such decisions.

[Bootstrap]

I think that God does use unregenerate persons to do His will even when they have no desire to do so, but I'm not sure how a person can go to war and kill other people without being evil. Is it not evil to reject Jesus and his way?

Yes, I think that could be one definition of evil. Does the same definition apply to a "good" policeman who hasn't yet killed someone but would do so if he needed to? And does the same definition apply to a cook on a battleship? And does it make any difference if the cook was drafted and didn't want to help with warfare. Is he still evil for going along with the draft?

How do you read Romans 13?

[Ken]

The government is the people that you and your fellow citizens elected. You have just as much culpability in the decisions that they make as some cook on a Navy vessel does when it comes to the decisions that his military leadership makes.

Not if I didn't help elect a government.
I would prefer a government that respects Christians and gives them options for declining involvement in anything they don't want to be involved in for conscience sake. (including only funding those projects that I care about) This wouldn't mean that I could shirk my responsibility to contribute to the common good in other ways.
As it is, I live in a democracy and the NT doesn't give me any option for opting out of paying taxes. I suppose I could include a letter with each check I write, appealing that my money not be used for defense purposes. It would then be up to them to decide what to do with my appeal.

The New Testament world is one in which Judea was a conquered and occupied province of the Roman Empire. Individual residents of Judea had no say or representation over their government. They were ruled by a governor imposed by Rome supported by legions sent from Rome. Decisions were made by the Emperor Caesar Augustus and the Roman Senate. As a consequence it was perfectly accurate and logical for Jesus and Paul to teach "render unto Caesar" and that people should subject themselves to the governing authorities because God is the originator and establisher of that authority. People (at least the people of Judea) had no say in any of it.

We, however, are not subjects of a distant emperor that we had no role in choosing. Unlike Biblical Judea, we live in a Republic whose authority is based on the consent of the governed. And one in which the government itself is chosen collectively by the governed.

So whether or not you choose to vote, the government you live under is based on the consent of the governed and chosen by the people. That is part of the responsibility that comes with living in a republic and a democracy. None of that changes if you choose not to participate. You may not like the outcomes of that process. And if the government chooses to go to war or otherwise employ violence on your behalf, you may disagree. But it is ultimately happening on your behalf whether or not you expressed consent or dissent. Or did nothing. Choosing not to vote doesn't change that.

Put another way, we are all COLLECTIVELY responsible for the actions of our government. Even if we are not INDIVIDUALLY responsible.

[RZehr]

Rzehr, I generally follow your position in practice, however I don't judge believers who are burdened by their entanglement in the world's greatest war machinery. Here are some of the reasons I sympathize with them.

If we are responsible for war money, do we get credit for welfare? I don’t think so, in either case. Assuming welfare, helping people is a good thing, then should we make lots of money in order to pay more taxes, so more people can get welfare?

The credit you get is living in a society that has an elevated regard for human life, and a sense that on some level we are our brothers keepers, which is no small thing. If these values were stripped out, I don't think society would be improved. But I agree with your point it won't help you earn your personal salvation from judgement.

Once money changes hands, that is the end of it....

This fits well with a protestant, hyper individualist view of personal salvation and classical Adam Smith type capitalism money theory. And, I see some truth there to the extent that each man is judged by his own ethics, not his neighbors. But the older I get the more I suspect money is not only a simple commodity to be traded, but also a share in a disordered social system. This is why Jesus warns against it in absolute terms. Buying into a disordered system does indeed have lasting consequences.

This idea of being responsible for military expenditure via compulsory taxes, I think, could be traced not to any Biblical principle, but instead to modern peace activists and boycotting mentalities, and ultimately is a watered down version of using force to implement governmental policy change. And as non-resistant Mennonites, protesting the government is not historically our deal.

There is truth here but I think a bit overstated. What about loving your neighbor, that is a well established biblical principle. I have some respect for the Russian protesters who dare to say publicly they do not support war on Ukraine. I would like to see more Gazans publicly denounce Hamas and say "Not in my name." When my Vietnamese friend in college asked about my family's involvement in "the war" (as they call it,"the American war"), it was a blessing to say my father refused military service. Not all resistance needs to tied to policy change, it can stand alone as a moral signpost.

And as non-resistant Mennonites, protesting the government is not historically our deal.

Yes, but also remember we have a record of lobbying for policy change for our benefit but drawing the line at lobbying for policies that benefit others. I feel unsettled about that position.

I don’t have time for much of a reply. But I don’t think Jesus bore any personal responsibility for how his fish coin tax was used or misused by the Romans.

[Ken]

Rzehr, I generally follow your position in practice, however I don't judge believers who are burdened by their entanglement in the world's greatest war machinery. Here are some of the reasons I sympathize with them.

If we are responsible for war money, do we get credit for welfare? I don’t think so, in either case. Assuming welfare, helping people is a good thing, then should we make lots of money in order to pay more taxes, so more people can get welfare?

The credit you get is living in a society that has an elevated regard for human life, and a sense that on some level we are our brothers keepers, which is no small thing. If these values were stripped out, I don't think society would be improved. But I agree with your point it won't help you earn your personal salvation from judgement.

Once money changes hands, that is the end of it....

This fits well with a protestant, hyper individualist view of personal salvation and classical Adam Smith type capitalism money theory. And, I see some truth there to the extent that each man is judged by his own ethics, not his neighbors. But the older I get the more I suspect money is not only a simple commodity to be traded, but also a share in a disordered social system. This is why Jesus warns against it in absolute terms. Buying into a disordered system does indeed have lasting consequences.

This idea of being responsible for military expenditure via compulsory taxes, I think, could be traced not to any Biblical principle, but instead to modern peace activists and boycotting mentalities, and ultimately is a watered down version of using force to implement governmental policy change. And as non-resistant Mennonites, protesting the government is not historically our deal.

There is truth here but I think a bit overstated. What about loving your neighbor, that is a well established biblical principle. I have some respect for the Russian protesters who dare to say publicly they do not support war on Ukraine. I would like to see more Gazans publicly denounce Hamas and say "Not in my name." When my Vietnamese friend in college asked about my family's involvement in "the war" (as they call it,"the American war"), it was a blessing to say my father refused military service. Not all resistance needs to tied to policy change, it can stand alone as a moral signpost.

And as non-resistant Mennonites, protesting the government is not historically our deal.

Yes, but also remember we have a record of lobbying for policy change for our benefit but drawing the line at lobbying for policies that benefit others. I feel unsettled about that position.

I don’t have time for much of a reply. But I don’t think Jesus bore any personal responsibility for how his fish coin tax was used or misused by the Romans.

No he did not. But that was because he was a subject of an occupying imperial power and not a citizen of a republic.