orthodox and baptism, split from are pc anabaptist?

General Christian Theology
Sudsy
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Re: orthodox and baptism, split from are pc anabaptist?

Postby Sudsy » Wed Oct 11, 2017 9:42 am

Josh wrote:
Sudsy wrote:I'm curious about the Holdeman 'true church' concept. In GAMEO it says 'Attendance at other churches and participation in intimate spiritual relationships with nonmembers are regarded as bordering on "spiritual adultery" or listening to "false prophets." How do CGC believers regard non-CGC believers ? Are they considered 'saved' or 'born again' ? Or is it that anything outside the CGC teachings are 'playing with fire' so to speak and you could lose your salvation ? I'm not clear on where any group who identifies themselves as the 'true church' regards others not a member of their church.

Not looking to quarrel but to understand more about the CGC group.


Like most other conservative or plain Anabaptists, the CGC views the individual believer as quite a different thing than a church, which is a collection of believers (or a collection of believers mixed with unbelievers).

We believe that there are many sincere followers of Jesus all over the world. Some of them are in the CGC. Some of them are in churches that are not faithfully following Jesus as a whole church, even though some individual believers in them are. And we believe some faithful followers aren't in any church at all.

We take seriously the injunction to "judge those within your body" instead of judging those without; if we believe we are a true church of God, then our duty is to make sure we stay that way. That's where most of the focus on being a true church ends, including rather frequent admonitions in conference papers, the Messenger of Truth, from the pulpit, and from other brothers during sharing time at church to take heed that we do not trust in our church membership or our status as a true church of God to think we can get away with letting laxness, sin, and the world creep into either our individual lives or into the church as a whole.

Now, for a person who was born and raised in the CGC, spending a lot of time in close spiritual fellowship with non-CGC members tends to be viewed with suspicion, particularly if the choice of with whom to do so is people who are in a significantly more worldly direction. Spending time around people in the Nationwide and Ohio Wisler affiliates near my home church wouldn't cause much of a stir; spending time around slightly less conservative people, or a generic evangelical setting, definitely would.

We do have a strong belief that those who are not preaching the gospel as we understand it (particularly nonresistance) could very well be false prophets. I can't say I disagree with this belief. I don't believe it's productive to try to have close, intimate spiritual fellowship with someone who believes a follower of Jesus sometimes picks up a gun and shoots people.


Thanks Josh. Personally that is a little too 'narrow' for me as I don't link the Gospel with non-resistance and have experienced good fellowship with those who do believe there is and has been a time for a Christian to 'wield the sword'. We just don't fellowship around that issue. On the other hand, I would regard 'pouring' over 'immersion' as not narrow enough in practise. I'm glad though that you have found a group that best fits your understandings of following Jesus. Some don't have as many positive things to say about the church they attend.
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Hats Off
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Re: Are Plain Catholics Anabaptists?

Postby Hats Off » Wed Oct 11, 2017 10:16 am

Valerie wrote:
Hats Off wrote:
silentreader wrote:
Are the RCs and EO sects or what exactly is a "sect"?


No offence intended HO, but when I saw this post I immediately thought of Proverbs 26:17. It probably applies in at least some ways.

I will try a little harder not to take a dog by the ears.



Forgive me if I misunderstood, I thought you were sincerely asking a question-[/quote]

I was taking offence at the word "sect" as though RC and Orthodox were "the Church" and all others were something else. I always thought of that word with a negative connotation and some of the definitions I found do bear that out but I see that it can also be used otherwise.
sect
a group of people with somewhat different religious beliefs (typically regarded as heretical) from those of a larger group to which they belong.
synonyms: (religious) cult, religious group, denomination, persuasion, religious order;
More derogatory a group that has separated from an established church; a nonconformist church.
More a philosophical or political group, especially one regarded as extreme or dangerous.


The underlined words are ones that I would object to if applied to most of us on this forum.
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Valerie
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Re: Are Plain Catholics Anabaptists?

Postby Valerie » Wed Oct 11, 2017 5:08 pm

Hats Off wrote:
Valerie wrote:
Hats Off wrote:
No offence intended HO, but when I saw this post I immediately thought of Proverbs 26:17. It probably applies in at least some ways.

I will try a little harder not to take a dog by the ears.



Forgive me if I misunderstood, I thought you were sincerely asking a question-


I was taking offence at the word "sect" as though RC and Orthodox were "the Church" and all others were something else. I always thought of that word with a negative connotation and some of the definitions I found do bear that out but I see that it can also be used otherwise.
sect
a group of people with somewhat different religious beliefs (typically regarded as heretical) from those of a larger group to which they belong.
synonyms: (religious) cult, religious group, denomination, persuasion, religious order;
More derogatory a group that has separated from an established church; a nonconformist church.
More a philosophical or political group, especially one regarded as extreme or dangerous.


The underlined words are ones that I would object to if applied to most of us on this forum.[/quote]

I think in these days that we live in Christendom, it's somewhat natural to see the Church at large as divided into denominations, and then within denominations various 'sects'- you can hardly name a denomination that doesn't have many sects within it. Not necessarily a negative thing, but certainly not what God intended for HIs Church- however the usage of the word itself doesn't have to be negative- do you see Apostle Paul as saying this in a negative way? It appears he was saying it as a positive usage here:

Acts 26:
5 Which knew me from the beginning, if they would testify, that after the most straitest sect of our religion I lived a Pharisee.

it is not an uncommon word in Scripture:

Acts 15:
5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

These are sects off of the large body of Jews- they were still Jews but had formed a sect based on
To me I suppose I think it is almost short for 'section' like a section of the larger body-

The "Old Believers" is a sect of the Orthodox-
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Josh
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Re: orthodox and baptism, split from are pc anabaptist?

Postby Josh » Wed Oct 11, 2017 11:40 pm

Sudsy wrote:Thanks Josh. Personally that is a little too 'narrow' for me as I don't link the Gospel with non-resistance and have experienced good fellowship with those who do believe there is and has been a time for a Christian to 'wield the sword'. We just don't fellowship around that issue. On the other hand, I would regard 'pouring' over 'immersion' as not narrow enough in practise. I'm glad though that you have found a group that best fits your understandings of following Jesus. Some don't have as many positive things to say about the church they attend.


Understood. In times past, myself, and some of my friends, would have objected to something that is so "narrow" it can't include full fellowship with practicing, same-sex-married homosexuals. But I feel if I am going to exclude such people, then I'd best exclude people who disobey Jesus' other direct commands, like the ones where he tells us to not to murder each other.
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Valerie
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Re: orthodox and baptism, split from are pc anabaptist?

Postby Valerie » Thu Oct 12, 2017 7:24 am

Josh wrote:
Sudsy wrote:Thanks Josh. Personally that is a little too 'narrow' for me as I don't link the Gospel with non-resistance and have experienced good fellowship with those who do believe there is and has been a time for a Christian to 'wield the sword'. We just don't fellowship around that issue. On the other hand, I would regard 'pouring' over 'immersion' as not narrow enough in practise. I'm glad though that you have found a group that best fits your understandings of following Jesus. Some don't have as many positive things to say about the church they attend.


Understood. In times past, myself, and some of my friends, would have objected to something that is so "narrow" it can't include full fellowship with practicing, same-sex-married homosexuals. But I feel if I am going to exclude such people, then I'd best exclude people who disobey Jesus' other direct commands, like the ones where he tells us to not to murder each other.


This is where interpretation and early church history enter in- God never equated military service to murdering each other- think back to the 10 commandments "Thou shalt not murder"- if He saw those as the 'same thing' He would have then not had His own Elect, bearing His name, kill every man, woman, child & animal in many areas on the way to the promised land- so if killing was His commandment to Israel He obviously doesn't consider military & murder as the same thing, and the early Church had people who served in the service. Even instructions to 'soldiers' so there we have not disobedience to Jesus, as you suggest, but a difference in 'interpretation'.
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ken_sylvania
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Re: orthodox and baptism, split from are pc anabaptist?

Postby ken_sylvania » Thu Oct 12, 2017 7:58 am

Valerie wrote:
Josh wrote:
Sudsy wrote:Thanks Josh. Personally that is a little too 'narrow' for me as I don't link the Gospel with non-resistance and have experienced good fellowship with those who do believe there is and has been a time for a Christian to 'wield the sword'. We just don't fellowship around that issue. On the other hand, I would regard 'pouring' over 'immersion' as not narrow enough in practise. I'm glad though that you have found a group that best fits your understandings of following Jesus. Some don't have as many positive things to say about the church they attend.


Understood. In times past, myself, and some of my friends, would have objected to something that is so "narrow" it can't include full fellowship with practicing, same-sex-married homosexuals. But I feel if I am going to exclude such people, then I'd best exclude people who disobey Jesus' other direct commands, like the ones where he tells us to not to murder each other.


This is where interpretation and early church history enter in- God never equated military service to murdering each other- think back to the 10 commandments "Thou shalt not murder"- if He saw those as the 'same thing' He would have then not had His own Elect, bearing His name, kill every man, woman, child & animal in many areas on the way to the promised land- so if killing was His commandment to Israel He obviously doesn't consider military & murder as the same thing, and the early Church had people who served in the service. Even instructions to 'soldiers' so there we have not disobedience to Jesus, as you suggest, but a difference in 'interpretation'.


Come on, Valerie. Do you remember what the instructions to the "soldiers" were (btw, they were John Baptist's instructions, not Jesus' instructions)? The soldiers were instructed to "do violence to no man." Do you suppose that meant that it was OK to kill by some kind of non-violent means????

The instructions Jesus gave to his sword-bearing friend were to "put the sword into its sheath."
Jesus said explicitly that under the old law, hatred of one's enemies was acceptable, but that his (Jesus') followers are to love their enemies.

Do you really think maiming and killing people is a good way to demonstrate your love for them?

Jesus' own words explain very well how interpretation and church tradition enter into excusing "christians" going to war. "And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition." Mark 7:9
That is exactly what the so-called church has done. They have rejected Jesus' commandment so that they can keep their own tradition of killing other people. It doesn't make God happy.
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Josh
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Re: orthodox and baptism, split from are pc anabaptist?

Postby Josh » Thu Oct 12, 2017 9:54 am

Unfortunately I find no option except spiritual separation from those who do try to follow Jesus but who “hearing, they do not hear, and seeing, they do not see” Christ’s message of peace.

I do believe Jesus’ grace covers a multitude of sins, including ones committed in ignorance. Other than that, I just pray for revival.

I’ve got enough to deal with in my own life where I like the comfort of strong physical security, trust in other men wielding the sword, and in my own church we have enough temptations to trust in the sword. So I do better to judge myself and my own church rather than judge those without.
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ohio jones
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Re: orthodox and baptism, split from are pc anabaptist?

Postby ohio jones » Thu Oct 12, 2017 10:34 am

Valerie wrote:We are born with the need to be "Born Again" by water & the Spirit (Baptism)-

I thought the Orthodox linked baptism to birth, rather than to the new birth. :?
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Josh
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Re: orthodox and baptism, split from are pc anabaptist?

Postby Josh » Thu Oct 12, 2017 10:44 am

"So this guy in a dress tried to drown me three times, and my parents just stood around and took pictures!" (A joke a former EO friend told me.)

Sometimes it's not a funny joke at all, though:

Baby dies minutes after being immersed three times during baptism

A priest has been accused of accidentally drowning a six-week-old boy as he baptised him in Moldova.
Witnesses claimed the baby died after Father Valentin failed to cover his mouth and nose when he immersed him in water three times.

...

The baby's godmother Aliona Vacarciuc, 32, told the Sun: 'The baby was crying as he went into the water.

'We couldn't believe it but we thought the priest must know what he's doing, but he didn't. When we got him back there was nothing that could be done anymore.'

She said that she and the other godparents had challenged the priest and asked him: 'What have you done.'

She added: 'He just told us that he knew better than we did what should have happened and that it was not his first baptism — he was experienced and knew what to do.'


You can say what you will about Mennonites who choose to baptise adults by pouring, but one thing is for certain: we've never turned the new birth into a new death.
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Sudsy
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Re: orthodox and baptism, split from are pc anabaptist?

Postby Sudsy » Thu Oct 12, 2017 4:25 pm

Josh wrote:
Sudsy wrote:Thanks Josh. Personally that is a little too 'narrow' for me as I don't link the Gospel with non-resistance and have experienced good fellowship with those who do believe there is and has been a time for a Christian to 'wield the sword'. We just don't fellowship around that issue. On the other hand, I would regard 'pouring' over 'immersion' as not narrow enough in practise. I'm glad though that you have found a group that best fits your understandings of following Jesus. Some don't have as many positive things to say about the church they attend.


Understood. In times past, myself, and some of my friends, would have objected to something that is so "narrow" it can't include full fellowship with practicing, same-sex-married homosexuals. But I feel if I am going to exclude such people, then I'd best exclude people who disobey Jesus' other direct commands, like the ones where he tells us to not to murder each other.


If I took that approach I would have to disfellowship with those who do not immerse in baptism as this is how I and many others interpret Jesus command in the great commission. I do think Jesus 'direct commands' still must go through a study of their application and whether or not they apply to those beyond the initial audience. Like the command to go sell all and give that money to the poor if we want to become a Christ follower. And how the apostles actually interpreted Jesus direct coommand in the great commisision regarding the name to be baptised in. When we look at all the references, not once do we read where anyone was immersed in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Did they disobey a direct command ?

There are those of us here on this forum that obviously have differing applications of Jesus commands (i.e. footwashing, being another), so how far do we disfellowship from one another ? Is it Ok to fellowship on a forum but not face to face ? I'm not clear where disfellowshipping is OK and where it is not for some. Do any CAs look at fellowshipping on a forum of other non-CAs as sinning ?
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