Salvation issues

General Christian Theology
Soloist
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Salvation issues

Postby Soloist » Wed Sep 13, 2017 12:17 pm

The false teachings that concern me most are about salvation itself. Whether a woman is a pastor or not is not a salvation issue in how I read scripture. Our MB Anabaptist church has just opened the door to more women in all ministries of the church except lead pastor (and some day I think we will get there). This has nothing to do with 'women's lib' but much to do with a restoration of men and women prior to the fall and what it will be like when we get to heaven. In worship we get a taste of that when both men and women are operating in the gifts God has given them.


You hear this a lot referring to the Holy kiss, the veiling, modest clothing, women pastors, non-resistance, not swearing oaths, and so on.

First, an assumption, the apostles carry the authority of Jesus behind them, thus their writings are instructions from God.
If you don't agree with that assumption, please declare it before you respond.

At what point is your salvation threatened by differing interpretations to the simple reading of the Scripture?

Or in other words, how much of the simple teachings of the Bible can you ignore and still be a Christian? (Christ follower)

"Why do you call me Lord and do not do the things I say?"

Thoughts?
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Bootstrap
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Re: Salvation issues

Postby Bootstrap » Wed Sep 13, 2017 12:47 pm

Soloist wrote:At what point is your salvation threatened by differing interpretations to the simple reading of the Scripture?

Or in other words, how much of the simple teachings of the Bible can you ignore and still be a Christian? (Christ follower)


It's almost always the wrong question, isn't it? We need to follow the Bible as we best understand it. We are rarely called to judge the salvation of others.

On the other hand, it's really useful to focus on what is most central, because we often forget the central things because we are so concerned about being right about everything else. And I think it can be helpful to look for common ground with Christians we disagree with, realizing that we strongly disagree on some things. We don't always agree about what the "simple reading of Scripture" tells us, even when we do agree that this is what we want to do.
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Sunbeam
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Re: Salvation issues

Postby Sunbeam » Wed Sep 13, 2017 4:11 pm

I think something becomes a salvation issue for me if I know what I should do, or should and could know what I should do if I wanted to know, and refuse to do it.
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Bootstrap
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Re: Salvation issues

Postby Bootstrap » Wed Sep 13, 2017 4:18 pm

Sunbeam wrote:I think something becomes a salvation issue for me if I know what I should do, or should and could know what I should do if I wanted to know, and refuse to do it.


I agree - or at least a discipleship issue.

And when I look at the New Testament, I'm also aware that congratulating myself on my own righteousness and pointing fingers at the tax collector over there can also be a salvation issue. That makes me very cautious.

For the sake of clarity: Soloist, I don't think you were doing that at all in your OP. But I see this a lot, and it makes me nervous. I've even been in churches where the style of preaching largely consisted of imagining how awful other people are and being grateful that we are so great. I would not feel safe in that setting.
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Bootstrap
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Re: Salvation issues

Postby Bootstrap » Wed Sep 13, 2017 5:39 pm

Soloist wrote:"Why do you call me Lord and do not do the things I say?"

Thoughts?


That quote comes from Luke 6:46. What kinds of things does Jesus tell them in the first 45 verses of that chapter? It starts with Pharisees judging Jesus and the disciples because they were not stringent enough in keeping the Sabbath (plucking grain on the Sabbath, healing on the Sabbath). Then we have the Sermon on the Plain (Luke's version of the Sermon on the Mount). After that we have the "judge not that you not be judged" passage, and a warning about the speck in your own eye versus the speck on the other's eye.

This is the context in which Jesus tells us what good fruit is, and that's the context for the verse quoted above. The context is important for understanding the verse.
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Sudsy
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Re: Salvation issues

Postby Sudsy » Wed Sep 13, 2017 5:56 pm

Sunbeam wrote:I think something becomes a salvation issue for me if I know what I should do, or should and could know what I should do if I wanted to know, and refuse to do it.


Since it was my statement originally I think I should try to clarify it. I believe a salvation issue to be one such as Jesus is not the only way to enter God's Kingdom. Or salvation is not about being saved from our sins. Or one can be saved by not repenting and believing in the work Jesus did to obtain our salvation. Or that Jesus didn't really die and rise from the grave. Those basic salvation beliefs and acts.

When it comes to the list Soloist provided in the OP and many more I could add, they are issues on how we understand and apply these to following Christ. Yes, "the apostles carry the authority of Jesus behind them, thus their writings are instructions from God." However, instructions to who beyond the immediate audience ?' Some would say physical 'foot washing' is an ordinance established by Jesus for all time even though they somehow have regulated it to once or twice a year whereas in Jesus day it was daily when a guest enters your home. Others look at the setting and habits of that day and see what Jesus was saying is not to be taken as literal foot washing today. It is not about disobeying but rather applying the lesson in settings we live in.

I would also suggest that everyone of us are willfully disobedient to what Jesus commanded. If we take a quote such as the one mentioned - "Why do you call me Lord and do not do the things I say?" as being a salvation issue, none of us will be saved for another text says if we say we don't sin, we are deceived. Fact is we all sin and often willfully. As we mature spiritually we should sin less but these sins do not cause us to lose our salvation. Even the apostle Paul talked about his on-going struggle with sin. I also believe any born again Christian has a desire in them not to sin.

Well, just wanted to clarify, I hope, what I meant.
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KingdomBuilder
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Re: Salvation issues

Postby KingdomBuilder » Wed Sep 13, 2017 7:36 pm

I do not think there is a certain tipping point at which we can establish everyone's salvation or lack of based upon many of these (so-called) "secondary" issues.

Personally, I view the fruit of those who proclaim "we don't need that, it doesn't apply to us, etc.". The mindset behind those groups willing to turn a blind eye even to relatively "minor" things is surely different.
We can see that these little things reflect a deep mindset that is already in place.

These little "differences" may be little at times, but in general I see them as warning signs of a deeply rooted viewpoint of God and the Word.
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Sudsy
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Re: Salvation issues

Postby Sudsy » Wed Sep 13, 2017 9:04 pm

KingdomBuilder wrote:I do not think there is a certain tipping point at which we can establish everyone's salvation or lack of based upon many of these (so-called) "secondary" issues.

Personally, I view the fruit of those who proclaim "we don't need that, it doesn't apply to us, etc.". The mindset behind those groups willing to turn a blind eye even to relatively "minor" things is surely different.
We can see that these little things reflect a deep mindset that is already in place.

These little "differences" may be little at times, but in general I see them as warning signs of a deeply rooted viewpoint of God and the Word.


I don't doubt there are those who disregard certain scriptures as it doesn't fit what they want Christianity to be about. For them, imo, they really need to consider their attitude towards God and whether or not they have received a new heart that wants to obey. And just what part the bible plays in how they follow Christ. However, others that question traditional thinking in areas of discipleship may be looking deeper into a subject because of the contradictions that appear when comparing scripture with scripture. They suspect some of these views can be interfering with furthering the Gospel today and need to openly consider studying them closer. Some Christians who determine some things are not for today will stress other things that are being ignored and should be obeyed. What areas of obedience best further the Kingdom is a question I care to consider.

When looking at the 'fruit' of others, what are these fruits ? Are they the expected norms coming from tradition ? Are they how much mingling with the world goes on ? Is it the 'fruit' of the Spirit ? Do we acknowledge the growth in spirituality in each unique person's life when we fruit inspect ? Is this fruit how many souls they are leading to Christ ? I'm wondering just how many bias expectations on 'fruit' we have that some of which may come from our church community and it's expected norms.

Personally, I am not afraid to consider what guys like Greg Boyd, Bruxy Cavey and others challenge in traditional scripture interpretations. Especially when they believe in some basic Anabaptist distinctives. I'm not convinced on everything they present but I think a lot of it needs close consideration. Our MB teaching pastor agrees that they are putting out some good Anabaptist stuff. But not all here are comfortable with traditional interpretations being challenged.

It took some 1800 years to get rid of slavery and in the end even Christians fought the change to this mindset. But we finally got there. I think this will happen with other areas also. It isn't all downhill when change comes as some think it is.
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Ernie
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Re: Salvation issues

Postby Ernie » Wed Sep 13, 2017 9:29 pm

Sudsy wrote:
Sunbeam wrote:I think something becomes a salvation issue for me if I know what I should do, or should and could know what I should do if I wanted to know, and refuse to do it.


Since it was my statement originally I think I should try to clarify it. I believe a salvation issue to be one such as Jesus is not the only way to enter God's Kingdom. Or salvation is not about being saved from our sins. Or one can be saved by not repenting and believing in the work Jesus did to obtain our salvation. Or that Jesus didn't really die and rise from the grave. Those basic salvation beliefs and acts.


A rich young ruler came to Jesus and wondered how he could experience eternal life. Jesus told him to give to the poor and the man refused. This became a salvation issue.

I agree with Sunbeam that anything can become a salvation issue if God asks us to do it and we steadfastly refuse.
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ohio jones
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Re: Salvation issues

Postby ohio jones » Wed Sep 13, 2017 9:43 pm

Sudsy wrote:It took some 1800 years to get rid of slavery and in the end even Christians fought the change to this mindset. But we finally got there.

21 million people around the globe (or by other estimates as high as 46 million) would disagree that slavery is extinct.

But since you brought up the subject: Is slave ownership a salvation issue?
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