Salvation by faith and works..?

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EdselB
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Re: Salvation by faith and works..?

Post by EdselB »

Paul wrote:Funny, I was reading a sermon by Christian Burkholder from another topic, and I have to say I really enjoyed reading it.

On the topic of faith he said something interesting: "Yet, whoever you are, let us think for a moment, what can be done in the kingdom of this world with gold and silver, and what men do and suffer for the sake of it. Yet as already said, true faith is much more precious than these. For according to the testimony of Jesus Christ, not a soul will be lost that has this faith. He says: He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him" (John 3:36)."

He then goes on how this true faith can be obtained and what the fruit of this faith looks like, but it seems like this outstanding (according to GAMEO) Mennonite Bishop did believe in perseverance of the saints. ;)

On the topic of backsliding he did also say the following: "Think also what a heavy accountability will follow thereon if you make a covenant with God, pledging yourself to be faithful to Him, and then again becoming unfaithful. I have alas! seen many such in whom I observed a true conviction of sin, a true awakening from the sleep of the same; yea, a proper knowledge of themselves; yet, who, alas! by degrees declined from this state." But notice how he doesn't say he believes that these people were born again, though they were convinced of sin by the Spirit, and they were led to make a pledge, it did not lead them to saving faith but they "fell away from the faith" - so to speak.

This is the PDF if you're interested: http://thecommonlife.com.au/rainham/wp- ... -Youth.pdf
I think that you have misunderstood Christian Burkholder, if you concluded that he believed in "perseverance of the saints" in a way similar to a Calvinist or Reformed perspective. Perhaps you should read more carefully the whole of the conclusion of Burkholder's Address, "Warning Against Backsliding." I do not think it allows the construction you have placed on it. Here it is:
Now if you have ever bent your knees before God and united with the church, and made a vow unto the Lord; then give all diligence to be faithful unto Him. Watch and pray daily and hourly, and resist the enemy in faith. After Christ was baptised, He was “led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil” (Matt. 4:1).

Now if Christ was thus tempted, how much more will the enemy assail us with manifold temptations, and the more so as we bear a sinful nature in our flesh and blood', and the “sin which doth so easily beset us,” is so apt to make us slothful. Again, after you have, by the internal light of your soul, learned to know your sins and the depravity of your heart and entered on the narrow way of self-denial, in order to become a true follower of Jesus, then give all diligence thus to continue. For the crown is not at the beginning, but “he that endureth to the end shall be saved.” Again, “No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.” Nor do, like Lot’s wife, look back towards Sodom, nor with the children of Israel towards Egypt. But run with patience the race that is before you. Nor do again yield to the lusts and sins in which you formerly walked, but put off more and more, day to day, the “old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; and pray that he may more and more enlighten and renew your heart; yea as you "have received Christ Jesus the Lord so walk in him." Think also what a heavy accountability will follow thereon if you make a covenant with God, pledging yourself to be faithful to Him, and then again becoming unfaithful. I have alas! seen many such in whom I observed a true conviction of sin, a true awakening from the sleep of the same; yea, a proper knowledge of themselves; yet, who, alas! by degrees declined from this state.

Some even fell into a life of notorious sin and vice; some again into quarrels, brawls, and disputes; other into adultery and fornication, pomp and haughtiness, gluttony and intemperance, and other outbreaking sins; while nevertheless the Lord says: “When the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die” (Ezek. 18:24). The first drawings of grace are the best. Keep therefore that which is committed to your trust. “Occupy well thy pound, that thou mayest not be found unprofitable servant, and even that be taken away from thee which thou hast, and thou be cast into outer darkness, into the lake of fire, burning with brimstone, which is the “second death.” May the Lord in mercy lead us through this world of tribulation, strengthen our faith, and increase our knowledge, and preserve us unto a happy end.
Perhaps you misunderstood Burkholder's meaning, because he sees salvation not so much as an event, but as a process (see the bolded sections above).
Last edited by EdselB on Sun May 28, 2017 1:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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haithabu
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Re: Salvation by faith and works..?

Post by haithabu »

I think one source of misunderstanding for people looking in from the outside is that they sometimes assume that the Anabaptist emphasis on obedience means that we must have a different understanding of how to be saved.

That is not so (at least in my experience) but I think this emphasis arises because we see our faith as much more than a means of salvation in the next life; it is a calling to discipleship in this life. We are not just called to receive a Saviour, we are called to accept a King.

It seems to me that someone who sees his faith chiefly as a means to salvation is barely a Christian and is missing the whole point of why and for what purpose we are saved: to be visibly transformed people.
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temporal1
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Re: Salvation by faith and works..?

Post by temporal1 »

Paul wrote:
ken_sylvania wrote:I agree with this statement, and the vast majority of Anabaptist people I know would agree as well. I think it would be fair to say that we believe that an alive faith is necessary for salvation, that we believe that an alive faith will result in good works, and that we believe that a person who carelessly disobeys God is demonstrating that he does not have true living faith.
I am glad to hear that, someone asked me why I am on this forum not long ago, well this is exactly why. Because I love the anabaptists - your zeal to live a godly life according to Gods Word is beautiful - and I believe there is alot which brothers and sisters in the Lord can agree on regardless of our background.
hi Paul, i'm late to this topic, would like to tell you how much i appreciate your OP, the responses, and the effort you are making to better understand. you have valid questions that lots of folks might wonder about but never have opportunity, or are not able to find words to ask.

i'm not sure why questions arise, like, "why are you on this forum?" .. i'm glad you were not discouraged. this forum has admin+mods, if they feel any member does not belong here, they give fair+patient warning before doing anything drastic. this forum is "A place where Mennonites and others connect." and, that's literally true! there are lots of us "others." 8-) for the most part, here for similar reason as you describe. :)

i may not post again in this topic, but i am enjoying reading+learning.
thank you for taking the time to contribute.
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Josh
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Re: Salvation by faith and works..?

Post by Josh »

Paul wrote:I do think truth is pretty important, especially when it concerns something so vital as our salvation. The Apostle Paul was concerned with defending the Gospel from false teachers, aswell as proclaiming it to a dying world.
Do you think it's appropriate to wait all year for Mennonites to show up to sing on the street and pass out tracts, and then yell at any passersby who take a tract "You can't be good!" "Your works can't save you, stop trying to be good!" "You're sinning, there's nobody good but God, you can't change or stop sinning!"

That is, unfortunately, the logical end-conclusion of this kind of thinking. It is fruitless and unproductive to tell people and try to convince them that they cannot make choices, and that they cannot desire or try to follow Jesus or desire or try to love Jesus.

Pretty much all Mennonites, Amish, Hutterites, Brethren, and others believe in salvation by grace. We do believe that you can make a choice to follow Jesus, or a choice to reject him, but we also believe that this is only even possible because of Jesus' grace enabling us to make such a choice. But we don't believe that God "forces" us to choose him when we don't want him. And we certainly do not believe that God decides to just send some people to hell with no choice.

I would exhort you to read very carefully the books of James and Jude. They talk a lot about false teachers who will come and preach a different gospel - a gospel that gives licence to sin.
For certain men have secretly slipped in among you—men who long ago were marked out for the condemnation I am about to describe—ungodly men who have turned the grace of our God into a license for evil and who deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.
Going around telling people that obeying Jesus and not sinning is actually a bad thing and you shouldn't do it for fear of "relying on works" sounds very much like turning the grace of our God into a licence for evil.
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Valerie
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Re: Salvation by faith and works..?

Post by Valerie »

I do not know of ANY Evangelical groups that give a license to sin. But then who has been to every single Church in America to be able to know what they teach? I think there is misunderstanding on both parts. I listen to Christian radio daily- and repentance is brought up a lot-
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Josh
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Re: Salvation by faith and works..?

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Valerie wrote:I do not know of ANY Evangelical groups that give a license to sin. But then who has been to every single Church in America to be able to know what they teach? I think there is misunderstanding on both parts. I listen to Christian radio daily- and repentance is brought up a lot-
Then why does evangelical America harp on Mennonites and Amish so badly for believing in "works" when we don't, and constantly harp on how we aren't actually saved?
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Valerie
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Re: Salvation by faith and works..?

Post by Valerie »

Josh wrote:
Valerie wrote:I do not know of ANY Evangelical groups that give a license to sin. But then who has been to every single Church in America to be able to know what they teach? I think there is misunderstanding on both parts. I listen to Christian radio daily- and repentance is brought up a lot-
Then why does evangelical America harp on Mennonites and Amish so badly for believing in "works" when we don't, and constantly harp on how we aren't actually saved?
I don't know if they 'all' are, they are assuming because of things like the Ordnung, and Church Ordinances that have extra Biblical rules that they have gone the way of legalism- I think there are people who have remained in Anabaptism who also believe that they have gone in the way of legalism as well but don't know where else to go- so it is not just Evangelicals who have that concern- you may be getting 'works' and extra Biblical rules confused when you think that is the complaint. Example, if you don't obey the Ordnung, or you leave Amish for Mennonite, you 'can' be accused of losing your salvation.
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Josh
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Re: Salvation by faith and works..?

Post by Josh »

Example, if you don't obey the Ordnung, or you leave Amish for Mennonite, you 'can' be accused of losing your salvation
I think there's a lot of confusion about this by people outside of our communities. The issue at hand is usually submission to a brotherhood, not obeying some checklist of rules.

I think the Bible teaches us to submit one to another.
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Valerie
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Re: Salvation by faith and works..?

Post by Valerie »

Josh wrote:
Example, if you don't obey the Ordnung, or you leave Amish for Mennonite, you 'can' be accused of losing your salvation
I think there's a lot of confusion about this by people outside of our communities. The issue at hand is usually submission to a brotherhood, not obeying some checklist of rules.

I think the Bible teaches us to submit one to another.
I am not sure if it is confusion or not- perhaps- I do think that people outside of the communities see a similarity to extra rules as being like the Pharisees- who also wanted their own 'brethren' to submit to those- right or wrong, I think they are drawing some parallels to that-
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Josh
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Re: Salvation by faith and works..?

Post by Josh »

Does the Bible say to submit one to another or not?

You seem to think Anabaptist standards are all top down. That's not how it works at all.
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