The Thief on the Cross

General Christian Theology
RZehr
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Re: The Thief on the Cross

Postby RZehr » Mon Mar 20, 2017 9:59 am

Paul wrote:
Soloist wrote:I'll point out I never said Jesus did not go to Paradise but rather that Paradise is not Heaven. This assertion is supported by the verse below.

17Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God


The fact that Jesus would ascend to the Father after His bodily ressurection, doesn't have anything to do with His going to heaven or not before His resurrection. Ofcourse paradise is heaven, and the Lord said that to comfort the thief on the cross. Quite a cruel thing to do, if he would be lost after all.
I've heard your argument once before that the thief supposedly wasn't saved. It is usually people that are strong advocates of work-righteousness that are really in the dark about the grace of God that a sinner is actually saved by faith in Jesus Christ - not by works lest any man should boast - as this thief was.


Is Soloist saying the thief was not saved?
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Soloist
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Re: The Thief on the Cross

Postby Soloist » Mon Mar 20, 2017 11:03 am

Paul wrote:The fact that Jesus would ascend to the Father after His bodily ressurection, doesn't have anything to do with His going to heaven or not before His resurrection. Ofcourse paradise is heaven, and the Lord said that to comfort the thief on the cross. Quite a cruel thing to do, if he would be lost after all.
I've heard your argument once before that the thief supposedly wasn't saved. It is usually people that are strong advocates of work-righteousness that are really in the dark about the grace of God that a sinner is actually saved by faith in Jesus Christ - not by works lest any man should boast - as this thief was.


well as I've stated, I disagree that paradise is Heaven but I'm quite open to being wrong since it really doesn't matter that much. As for the Thief, I wouldn't say he got a one way ticket to heaven but he most certainly was given a chance or was flat out saved. I was not in the slightest saying Jesus lied or that the thief was doomed. As I attempted to point out, the thief condemned himself as worthy of punishment and then stated a purity of faith not with salvation in mind. He had repented from his sins as well. The other thief might have believed if he got something out of it...

Ephesians 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?


Two things, this doesn't say when Jesus ascended but that he took captives with Him from the lower parts of the earth.

1 Peter 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water

Again Jesus preached/proclaimed to captives
Luke 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.


A thought question for you, Was the rich man already judged? or was he waiting for judgment next to the lake of fire?
Was Abraham's bosom Heaven? or maybe paradise? Was hell a place of torment or compartmentalized into two sections?

This stuff really isn't a big deal to us one way or another. I believe that death bed confessions are the riskiest way to be saved and I would be skeptical you can live your life rejecting God and at the end decide that God was right and make it. That in my mind would show a belief in God and a desire to live for yourself rather then God. The judgment of God is just and I truly cannot say they are not saved but I would argue the Bible is full of teachings that suggest rebellion is a bad plan for salvation.
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Josh
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Re: The Thief on the Cross

Postby Josh » Mon Mar 20, 2017 11:19 am

I think we over-think the word "heaven". It just means sky / place up there beyond our understanding / the place where God's throne is. The German Himmel is a good translation of "heaven". Our own English word is loaded down with theological baggage.

"My dad, who is way up in the sky" wouldn't sound reverent to start the Lord's Prayer, but that is honestly what it was saying. The Bible doesn't say a lot about the exact topology of heaven, hell, and everything in between.

It does talk a lot about the kingdom of heaven. It also talks about what things look like where God's throne room is in Revelation. The take away I have is that God is in charge - Jesus is saving people and resurrecting them and taking them to his home to be with him.
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Paul
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Re: The Thief on the Cross

Postby Paul » Mon Mar 20, 2017 11:51 am

RZehr wrote:
Is Soloist saying the thief was not saved?


Nope, but he was saying that 'paradise' is an in-between state before judgment - and the thief on the cross might be lost after all.

But if you take the question the thief poses to Jesus into consideration, not only a God-given faith is expressed by him by which he called Jesus Lord, but also a Spirit-given knowledge that Jesus would enter His Kingdom. Which is what Jesus replies to, when He said that today he would be with Him in paradise. There's absolutely no ground to think that 'paradise' is anything short of Gods Kingdom, heaven, the glorious peace that believers enjoy between their death here on earth and the ressurection unto eternal life in the new heavens and new earth. This thief was saved and entered paradise, Christs Kingdom, heaven, - a place where those that are awaiting eternal damnation cannot come - on that very same day with Jesus Christ.

Luke 23:42-43 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
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Soloist
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Re: The Thief on the Cross

Postby Soloist » Mon Mar 20, 2017 12:17 pm

I think there is grounds for believing in paradise being a separate place. That being said, I don't know if it still is used or if Jesus's death and resurrection did away with the in between place, if there was one. I personally would be quite comfortable saying that all in paradise would go on to heaven, but again, no way to know. For all we know, the thief got baptized in paradise. As I said before... it really doesn't matter.
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Hats Off
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Re: The Thief on the Cross

Postby Hats Off » Mon Mar 20, 2017 5:51 pm

One of our problems is understanding that time is only an element of this life. After that man on the cross died, he left time behind and entered an eternal "today". There can be no "time" between death and eternity.
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Sudsy
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Re: The Thief on the Cross

Postby Sudsy » Mon Mar 20, 2017 6:20 pm

Hats Off wrote:One of our problems is understanding that time is only an element of this life. After that man on the cross died, he left time behind and entered an eternal "today". There can be no "time" between death and eternity.


The Seventh Day Adventists do not believe we are immediately with the Lord when we die but rather remain in a sleep state until the resurrection. So, according to their interpretation, we are present with the Lord after death but only in our next awake or conscious moment. They believe what I previously shared that the punctuation on the verse regarding paradise and the thief is wrong.

Here is when this was explained on Amazing Facts - https://www.amazingfacts.org/media-libr ... r-they-die
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Valerie
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Re: The Thief on the Cross

Postby Valerie » Mon Mar 20, 2017 11:30 pm

Sudsy wrote:
Hats Off wrote:One of our problems is understanding that time is only an element of this life. After that man on the cross died, he left time behind and entered an eternal "today". There can be no "time" between death and eternity.


The Seventh Day Adventists do not believe we are immediately with the Lord when we die but rather remain in a sleep state until the resurrection. So, according to their interpretation, we are present with the Lord after death but only in our next awake or conscious moment. They believe what I previously shared that the punctuation on the verse regarding paradise and the thief is wrong.

Here is when this was explained on Amazing Facts - https://www.amazingfacts.org/media-libr ... r-they-die



Well, I do not believe that the Lord has given interpretations correctly to the Seventh Day Adventist, and I do believe he is incorrect about what he is teaching here- this is not the understanding of the early church- nor other passages including teachings by Jesus who make it clear their are 'spirits' of men that are not sleeping, although their 'bodies' have not been resurrected yet-

Example:

The Glorious Company

18 For you have not come to the mountain that[c] may be touched and that burned with fire, and to blackness and darkness[d] and tempest, 19 and the sound of a trumpet and the voice of words, so that those who heard it begged that the word should not be spoken to them anymore. 20 (For they could not endure what was commanded: “And if so much as a beast touches the mountain, it shall be stoned[e] or shot with an arrow.”[f] 21 And so terrifying was the sight that Moses said, “I am exceedingly afraid and trembling.”[g])

22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

This is an example why have come to trust Orthodox teachings/interpretations which they've had since the Apostles- and in the worship service, it is an ever present reality of the above passage-
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Paul
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Re: The Thief on the Cross

Postby Paul » Tue Mar 21, 2017 2:58 am

Hats Off wrote:One of our problems is understanding that time is only an element of this life. After that man on the cross died, he left time behind and entered an eternal "today". There can be no "time" between death and eternity.


There is a sense of the temporal in eternity:

Revelation 6:10-11 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

And when Jesus said "today" as a means to comfort the thief, He undoubtedly meanth "today" in the sense that the thief understood "today" - the very same day He and the thief were crucified.
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Chris
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Re: The Thief on the Cross

Postby Chris » Wed Apr 05, 2017 5:20 pm

Anabaptists are not Sola Scriptura, and while the gospels seem to conflict, we are free to make assumptions that "all are correct", and that each gospel was the "perfect testimony" of each author. While they do conflict, that's why we are blessed to have 4 synoptic gospels. :)

Most protestants are sola scriptura (reminder Anabaptist is not protestant), and that was invented by Martin Luther. Anabaptist authority is in God alone, and the bible is the "handbook".
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