MennoNet.com

Valerie wrote:

RZehr wrote:

Valerie wrote:
How many is many? And why are they hiding it from their church but admitting it to you? To me this doesn't sound like a real upright way to behave.

It is difficult to convey the impression I was given by some former Amish- as Josh pointed out, there are more Old Orders that have been known to succomb to alcoholism- there were things shared with me who revealed that in their own group many confessed drinking (not to excess) because they didn't really feel it was a sin apparently- but then, it is a sin if you have to hide it. One of my friends fathers wrote a book about his alcohol recovery- (came from Amish originally, then Mennonite)
but with social media & formers- it really isn't a secret that there are Christians who belong to groups that have an ordinance not to drink but have confessed that they did- maybe it is because they felt if Jesus & His Apostles did it isn't really wrong to have a drink- I don't know- I just know that Jesus was falsely accused of a lot of things- one of them being a winebibber & I hope that Christians do not do the same to one another-
I do see this happen though.

Valerie,

I think you should stop getting all your ideas about the Amish from ex-Amish people. Get to know some people who are still Amish and are happy about it and let them speak for themselves.

Haystack wrote:

Hats Off wrote:I don't know what our practise would be but my daughter does not eat gluten, so she takes wine but not bread.

Have they thought about switching to gluten free bread?

My daughter could supply the church with gluten free bread but it has not been an issue.

Valerie wrote:
It is difficult to convey the impression I was given by some former Amish- as Josh pointed out, there are more Old Orders that have been known to succomb to alcoholism- there were things shared with me who revealed that in their own group many confessed drinking (not to excess) because they didn't really feel it was a sin apparently- but then, it is a sin if you have to hide it. One of my friends fathers wrote a book about his alcohol recovery- (came from Amish originally, then Mennonite)
but with social media & formers- it really isn't a secret that there are Christians who belong to groups that have an ordinance not to drink but have confessed that they did- maybe it is because they felt if Jesus & His Apostles did it isn't really wrong to have a drink- I don't know- I just know that Jesus was falsely accused of a lot of things- one of them being a winebibber & I hope that Christians do not do the same to one another-
I do see this happen though.

I don't doubt their accounts.
But whenever you have someone in any setting - religious, social, business - who agrees to one thing then secretly does another thing, on some level you need to mentally place their activity as a reflection on the person and not the group.

And the outsider also doesn't know if the group is changing their position on the issue and is no longer viewed as important.

Josh wrote:

Valerie wrote:

RZehr wrote:

It is difficult to convey the impression I was given by some former Amish- as Josh pointed out, there are more Old Orders that have been known to succomb to alcoholism- there were things shared with me who revealed that in their own group many confessed drinking (not to excess) because they didn't really feel it was a sin apparently- but then, it is a sin if you have to hide it. One of my friends fathers wrote a book about his alcohol recovery- (came from Amish originally, then Mennonite)
but with social media & formers- it really isn't a secret that there are Christians who belong to groups that have an ordinance not to drink but have confessed that they did- maybe it is because they felt if Jesus & His Apostles did it isn't really wrong to have a drink- I don't know- I just know that Jesus was falsely accused of a lot of things- one of them being a winebibber & I hope that Christians do not do the same to one another-
I do see this happen though.

Valerie,

I think you should stop getting all your ideas about the Amish from ex-Amish people. Get to know some people who are still Amish and are happy about it and let them speak for themselves.

To be sure, I don't get all of my ideas from ex-Amish people-
But for the record, do you believe Amish should remain Amish even if they disagree with some of their rules being Scriptural? Do you believe it is wrong for them to want to be Mennonite, or Church of God in Christ Mennonite perhaps?
I know some of them felt like the "teaching as doctrines the commandments of men" was happening a lot in their communities and in their heart of hearts, felt that this was 'another gospel'- so they went elsewhere. Is that sin?

RZehr wrote:

Valerie wrote:
It is difficult to convey the impression I was given by some former Amish- as Josh pointed out, there are more Old Orders that have been known to succomb to alcoholism- there were things shared with me who revealed that in their own group many confessed drinking (not to excess) because they didn't really feel it was a sin apparently- but then, it is a sin if you have to hide it. One of my friends fathers wrote a book about his alcohol recovery- (came from Amish originally, then Mennonite)
but with social media & formers- it really isn't a secret that there are Christians who belong to groups that have an ordinance not to drink but have confessed that they did- maybe it is because they felt if Jesus & His Apostles did it isn't really wrong to have a drink- I don't know- I just know that Jesus was falsely accused of a lot of things- one of them being a winebibber & I hope that Christians do not do the same to one another-
I do see this happen though.

I don't doubt their accounts.
But whenever you have someone in any setting - religious, social, business - who agrees to one thing then secretly does another thing, on some level you need to mentally place their activity as a reflection on the person and not the group.

And the outsider also doesn't know if the group is changing their position on the issue and is no longer viewed as important.

And that is part of why some leave groups with extra Biblical commandments, and I don't think it is wrong for them to do that- if in their hearts some of the commandments shouldn't be placed on people to be Christians-
It has been considered by some, that the extra burdens placed on OO Amish in itself can cause them to seek relief by way of alcohol- I don't know if that plays a part at all- but there are a lot of Christians who do not think it is a sin to have a drink but there are also a lot who abstain 'on their own' for a variety of reasons- yet it is not a 'rule' in the Church for all it's members. Coming from Pentecostal for most my life I knew few that were alcoholics even though there wasn't a rule against drinking- I knew some who would have a drink and some who totally abstained- the addiction ministry I served in, most of the folks came from unchurched backgrounds and needed help and found Christ and set free- we of course, had to encourage them to not make ANY provision for the flesh and not to take risks by the company they kept & places they would go- even change their normal driving patterns home, if they had previously driven by their favorite watering holes- it is important with ANY stronghold to recognize that 1) a dog will (could) return to it's vomit, & also that Jesus taught us to take drastic measures to avoid sin- (cut off the hand, pluck out the eye) and Apostle Paul emphasized not making provision for the flesh- with 'whichever' stronghold one deals with, these potentially hazardous to the soul weaknesses/addictions need drastic measures to avoid the temptations to return to the 'besetting sin'.

And I agree, it shouldn't be a 'reflection of the group' based on individuals, I apply this to all denominations including Catholics & Orthodox too who get cricicized-
However my previous questioning really didn't have anything to do with groups but trying to understand their 'perspective' regarding Jesus & the Apostles, which question I dropped, it did cause me to do some extra reading of the early Church again which is always a benefit.