Hooch, Booze, etc.

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective

Which best describes your personal views on alcohol and alcohol consumption?

 
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MaxPC
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Re: Hooch, Booze, etc.

Post by MaxPC »

Wade wrote:Agreed. But just for balance and not to take away here is some scripture:

Matthew 24
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?

46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.

48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;

49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;

50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,

51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Excellent reference, Wade. And for those who fight addiction, abstinence is the only answer.
[bible]Matthew 5, 29-30[/bible]
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Max (Plain Catholic)
Mt 24:35
Proverbs 18:2 A fool does not delight in understanding but only in revealing his own mind.
1 Corinthians 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is folly with God
RZehr
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Re: Hooch, Booze, etc.

Post by RZehr »

Valerie wrote: I just wonder how Anabaptists view the fact that Jesus & the Apostles did not abstain- nor even ask people to abstain- and even endured criticism for 'not' abstaining from religios folks who accused Jesus of being a glutton and drunkard-
Were there not problems from alcohol in those days as well? It seems there were because of the warnings in Holy Scripture, both old & new- but even knowing that AND the future, Jesus didn't abstain- I was wondering how Anabaptists reconcile this with their own understandings?
It doesn't matter to me if Jesus and the Apostles drank wine or not. I doubt they got drunk. It doesn't bother me at all. Where did they endure criticism for not abstaining?

Valerie wrote: (although I do know of many ANabaptists who drink alcohol, they admit, even if their own fellowship prophibits it).
How many is many? And why are they hiding it from their church but admitting it to you? To me this doesn't sound like a real upright way to behave.
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Hats Off
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Re: Hooch, Booze, etc.

Post by Hats Off »

I abstain, but that doesn't mean I have to reconcile anything with Jesus' water to wine miracle.
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Josh
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Re: Hooch, Booze, etc.

Post by Josh »

MaxPC wrote:
Wade wrote:Agreed. But just for balance and not to take away here is some scripture:

Matthew 24
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?

46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.

48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;

49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;

50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,

51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Excellent reference, Wade. And for those who fight addiction, abstinence is the only answer.
[bible]Matthew 5, 29-30[/bible]
How do you reconcile this with the Catholic position that wine must be used for communion?
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Hats Off
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Re: Hooch, Booze, etc.

Post by Hats Off »

It isn't only Catholics that use wine for communion; the old order groups that I am familiar with do so as well. And here again, I don't feel as though I have anything to reconcile.
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Josh
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Re: Hooch, Booze, etc.

Post by Josh »

Hats Off wrote:It isn't only Catholics that use wine for communion; the old order groups that I am familiar with do so as well. And here again, I don't feel as though I have anything to reconcile.
Agreed; none of us have said that "abstinence is the only answer", though. I'm wondering why a Catholic would say that abstinence is the only answer in contradiction with church teaching on the subject. (Incidentally, I disagree with the Catholic position of serving wine to alcoholics, but that's their position.)
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Hats Off
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Re: Hooch, Booze, etc.

Post by Hats Off »

Josh wrote:
Hats Off wrote:It isn't only Catholics that use wine for communion; the old order groups that I am familiar with do so as well. And here again, I don't feel as though I have anything to reconcile.
Agreed; none of us have said that "abstinence is the only answer", though. I'm wondering why a Catholic would say that abstinence is the only answer in contradiction with church teaching on the subject. (Incidentally, I disagree with the Catholic position of serving wine to alcoholics, but that's their position.)
Interesting point about alcoholics - we have very few if any that I am aware of currently - I don't know what our practise would be but my daughter does not eat gluten, so she takes wine but not bread.
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Haystack
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Re: Hooch, Booze, etc.

Post by Haystack »

Hats Off wrote:I don't know what our practise would be but my daughter does not eat gluten, so she takes wine but not bread.
Have they thought about switching to gluten free bread?
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Valerie
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Re: Hooch, Booze, etc.

Post by Valerie »

RZehr wrote:
Valerie wrote:
How many is many? And why are they hiding it from their church but admitting it to you? To me this doesn't sound like a real upright way to behave.
It is difficult to convey the impression I was given by some former Amish- as Josh pointed out, there are more Old Orders that have been known to succomb to alcoholism- there were things shared with me who revealed that in their own group many confessed drinking (not to excess) because they didn't really feel it was a sin apparently- but then, it is a sin if you have to hide it. One of my friends fathers wrote a book about his alcohol recovery- (came from Amish originally, then Mennonite)
but with social media & formers- it really isn't a secret that there are Christians who belong to groups that have an ordinance not to drink but have confessed that they did- maybe it is because they felt if Jesus & His Apostles did it isn't really wrong to have a drink- I don't know- I just know that Jesus was falsely accused of a lot of things- one of them being a winebibber & I hope that Christians do not do the same to one another-
I do see this happen though.
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MaxPC
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Re: Hooch, Booze, etc.

Post by MaxPC »

Hats Off wrote: Interesting point about alcoholics - we have very few if any that I am aware of currently - I don't know what our practise would be but my daughter does not eat gluten, so she takes wine but not bread.
In Catholic World we have a similar approach derived from Romans 14. The communicant is given the option of taking only the wine or the bread. Alcoholics abstain from the wine. Gluten sufferers abstain from the bread. Some of the larger parishes use gluten free bread for communion. My experience has been that each Anabaptist fellowship will help the person with the addiction if the person wants it. That desire to be helped must be there for any progress.

Studies of addictions confirm several factors that I'm glad to say, many fellowships and churches already had in practice: that the sufferer must be around positive role models and that they must abstain from the source of addiction completely be it alcohol, opioids, etc etc. I find Romans 14 to be quite good on this topic.
Romans 14:13-23 (ESV)

13 Therefore let us not pass judgment on one another any longer, but rather decide never to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of a brother. 14 I know and am persuaded in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself, but it is unclean for anyone who thinks it unclean. 15 For if your brother is grieved by what you eat, you are no longer walking in love. By what you eat, do not destroy the one for whom Christ died. 16 So do not let what you regard as good be spoken of as evil. 17 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking but of righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. 18 Whoever thus serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men. 19 So then let us pursue what makes for peace and for mutual upbuilding.

20 Do not, for the sake of food, destroy the work of God. Everything is indeed clean, but it is wrong for anyone to make another stumble by what he eats. 21 It is good not to eat meat or drink wine or do anything that causes your brother to stumble. 22 The faith that you have, keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the one who has no reason to pass judgment on himself for what he approves. 23 But whoever has doubts is condemned if he eats, because the eating is not from faith. For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin.
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Max (Plain Catholic)
Mt 24:35
Proverbs 18:2 A fool does not delight in understanding but only in revealing his own mind.
1 Corinthians 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is folly with God
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