Hooch, Booze, etc.

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective

Which best describes your personal views on alcohol and alcohol consumption?

 
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Josh
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Re: Hooch, Booze, etc.

Post by Josh »

Valerie wrote:
Josh wrote:Should a Christian abstain from drugs? Some of them are less harmful than alcohol and are now legal too.
yes-Jesus never turned water into drugs nor did He partake of drugs with His Apostles
We also have no record he ever ate chicken.
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KingdomBuilder
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Re: Hooch, Booze, etc.

Post by KingdomBuilder »

Josh wrote:Definitely. We might think the grass is greener on the other side, but I think we need to realise just how fortunate we are to have so many potlucks with delicious food, baked goods, etc
Right.. We'd be dopey to deny this realization.
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Valerie
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Re: Hooch, Booze, etc.

Post by Valerie »

Josh wrote:
Valerie wrote:
Josh wrote:Should a Christian abstain from drugs? Some of them are less harmful than alcohol and are now legal too.
yes-Jesus never turned water into drugs nor did He partake of drugs with His Apostles
We also have no record he ever ate chicken.
But we DO have a record that He drank wine, even being accused of a winebibber- Jesus wasn't against wine, He was against drunkeness, it doesn't seem this point you made is valid then?

I think a fellowship can make an ordinance that they will completely abstain from wine. It is however, an extra Biblical ordinance so when we are always saying 'that is not Scriptural' or question the early Church in their traditions that you cannot find in Scripture (specifically, ie. the 'oral' traditions Apostle Paul said to stand fast in) then it seems we are okay with adding ordinances &/or traditions not found in Scripture-
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Wade
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Re: Hooch, Booze, etc.

Post by Wade »

Valerie wrote:
Josh wrote:
Valerie wrote: yes-Jesus never turned water into drugs nor did He partake of drugs with His Apostles
We also have no record he ever ate chicken.
But we DO have a record that He drank wine, even being accused of a winebibber- Jesus wasn't against wine, He was against drunkeness, it doesn't seem this point you made is valid then?

I think a fellowship can make an ordinance that they will completely abstain from wine. It is however, an extra Biblical ordinance so when we are always saying 'that is not Scriptural' or question the early Church in their traditions that you cannot find in Scripture (specifically, ie. the 'oral' traditions Apostle Paul said to stand fast in) then it seems we are okay with adding ordinances &/or traditions not found in Scripture-
Where does it say in scripture that He drank wine?
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Valerie
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Re: Hooch, Booze, etc.

Post by Valerie »

Wade wrote:
Valerie wrote:
Josh wrote:
We also have no record he ever ate chicken.
But we DO have a record that He drank wine, even being accused of a winebibber- Jesus wasn't against wine, He was against drunkeness, it doesn't seem this point you made is valid then?

I think a fellowship can make an ordinance that they will completely abstain from wine. It is however, an extra Biblical ordinance so when we are always saying 'that is not Scriptural' or question the early Church in their traditions that you cannot find in Scripture (specifically, ie. the 'oral' traditions Apostle Paul said to stand fast in) then it seems we are okay with adding ordinances &/or traditions not found in Scripture-
Where does it say in scripture that He drank wine?
did Jesus drink wine, did Jesus drink alcohol Question: "Did Jesus drink wine/alcohol?"

From: https://www.gotquestions.org/did-Jesus-drink-wine.html

Answer: There is only one group of people who are explicitly told in the Bible to never drink wine/alcohol, and that is the Nazirites (Numbers 6:1–4). Jesus was not a Nazirite; He was a “Nazarene,” a native of the town of Nazareth (Luke 18:37). Jesus never took the Nazirite vow.

Christ’s first miracle of turning water into wine at the wedding at Cana almost certainly involved a fermented beverage. According to Jewish wedding tradition, fermented wine was always served at weddings; if Jesus had provided only grape juice, the master of the feast would have complained. Instead, he said the wine was better than what was previously served; it was apparently a “fine” wine (John 2:10–11).

The Greek word for “drunk” in John 2:10 is methuo, which means “to be drunken” or intoxicated. It is the same word used in Acts 2:15 where Peter is defending the apostles against accusations of drunkenness. The testimony of the master of the feast is that the wine Christ produced was able to intoxicate.

Of course, just because Jesus turned water into wine doesn’t prove that He drank the wine at the wedding, but it would have been normal for Him to do so. What it does prove is that Jesus doesn’t condemn drinking wine any more than He condemns eating bread. Sinful people abuse what is not inherently sinful. Bread and wine are not sinful, but gluttony and drunkenness are (Proverbs 23:2; Ephesians 5:18).

In Luke 7:33–44, Jesus said, “For John the Baptist has come eating no bread and drinking no wine, and you say, ‘He has a demon.’ The Son of Man has come eating and drinking, and you say, ‘Look at him! A glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’” (emphasis added). In verse 33 Jesus is making a contrast between John the Baptist’s “drinking no wine” and His own practice. Jesus goes on to say the religious leaders accused Him (falsely) of being a drunkard. Jesus was never a drunkard, any more than He was a glutton. He lived a completely sinless life (1 Peter 2:22); however, Luke 7 strongly suggests that Jesus did indeed partake of alcoholic wine.

The Passover celebration would also have commonly included fermented wine. The Scriptures use the term “fruit of the vine” (Matthew 26:27–29; Mark 14:23–25; Luke 22:17–18). Of course, Christ participated in drinking from the Passover cup (Mark 14:23).

All Christians would agree drunkenness is sinful, and Christ Himself warns against it (Luke 12:45). However, a biblical view of wine is that it is given as something to delight in (Psalm 104:14–15). There are plenty of warnings against alcohol abuse, in texts like Proverbs 20:1, because sinful men are more likely to abuse wine than to use it in moderation. Those who try to use Jesus’ probable use of wine to excuse their drunkenness should heed the warning in Luke 12:45. Christians who want to keep a biblical view of drinking wine should either drink in moderation, never to drunkenness, or abstain totally.


Also, His words:
KJV But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.

It stands to reason, if Jesus turned the water into 'real' wine (His first miracle at the request of His mother) if He was against wine, He wouldn't have done that- did He drink it? No where do we read that He abstained from wine nor encouraged one to 'abstain' from wine- Scripture points out John the Baptist did- it does point out Jesus drank wine and would again, in the Kingdom of heaven- and of course we know Apostle Paul encouraged Timothy to drink some for his stomach- but according to the above, He IS the one that said of Himself, the Son of Man came eating and drinking- which brought on accusations of being a glutton and a winebibber.
How do we miss this?
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Valerie
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Re: Hooch, Booze, etc.

Post by Valerie »

Valerie wrote:
Wade wrote:
Valerie wrote:
But we DO have a record that He drank wine, even being accused of a winebibber- Jesus wasn't against wine, He was against drunkeness, it doesn't seem this point you made is valid then?

I think a fellowship can make an ordinance that they will completely abstain from wine. It is however, an extra Biblical ordinance so when we are always saying 'that is not Scriptural' or question the early Church in their traditions that you cannot find in Scripture (specifically, ie. the 'oral' traditions Apostle Paul said to stand fast in) then it seems we are okay with adding ordinances &/or traditions not found in Scripture-
Where does it say in scripture that He drank wine?
did Jesus drink wine, did Jesus drink alcohol Question: "Did Jesus drink wine/alcohol?"

From: https://www.gotquestions.org/did-Jesus-drink-wine.html

Answer: There is only one group of people who are explicitly told in the Bible to never drink wine/alcohol, and that is the Nazirites (Numbers 6:1–4). Jesus was not a Nazirite; He was a “Nazarene,” a native of the town of Nazareth (Luke 18:37). Jesus never took the Nazirite vow.

Christ’s first miracle of turning water into wine at the wedding at Cana almost certainly involved a fermented beverage. According to Jewish wedding tradition, fermented wine was always served at weddings; if Jesus had provided only grape juice, the master of the feast would have complained. Instead, he said the wine was better than what was previously served; it was apparently a “fine” wine (John 2:10–11).

The Greek word for “drunk” in John 2:10 is methuo, which means “to be drunken” or intoxicated. It is the same word used in Acts 2:15 where Peter is defending the apostles against accusations of drunkenness. The testimony of the master of the feast is that the wine Christ produced was able to intoxicate.

Of course, just because Jesus turned water into wine doesn’t prove that He drank the wine at the wedding, but it would have been normal for Him to do so. What it does prove is that Jesus doesn’t condemn drinking wine any more than He condemns eating bread. Sinful people abuse what is not inherently sinful. Bread and wine are not sinful, but gluttony and drunkenness are (Proverbs 23:2; Ephesians 5:18).

In Luke 7:33–44, Jesus said, “For John the Baptist has come eating no bread and drinking no wine, and you say, ‘He has a demon.’ The Son of Man has come eating and drinking, and you say, ‘Look at him! A glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’” (emphasis added). In verse 33 Jesus is making a contrast between John the Baptist’s “drinking no wine” and His own practice. Jesus goes on to say the religious leaders accused Him (falsely) of being a drunkard. Jesus was never a drunkard, any more than He was a glutton. He lived a completely sinless life (1 Peter 2:22); however, Luke 7 strongly suggests that Jesus did indeed partake of alcoholic wine.

The Passover celebration would also have commonly included fermented wine. The Scriptures use the term “fruit of the vine” (Matthew 26:27–29; Mark 14:23–25; Luke 22:17–18). Of course, Christ participated in drinking from the Passover cup (Mark 14:23).

All Christians would agree drunkenness is sinful, and Christ Himself warns against it (Luke 12:45). However, a biblical view of wine is that it is given as something to delight in (Psalm 104:14–15). There are plenty of warnings against alcohol abuse, in texts like Proverbs 20:1, because sinful men are more likely to abuse wine than to use it in moderation. Those who try to use Jesus’ probable use of wine to excuse their drunkenness should heed the warning in Luke 12:45. Christians who want to keep a biblical view of drinking wine should either drink in moderation, never to drunkenness, or abstain totally.


Also, His words (Matthew 26:29, Luke 22:18):
KJV But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.

It stands to reason, if Jesus turned the water into 'real' wine (His first miracle at the request of His mother) if He was against wine, He wouldn't have done that- did He drink it? No where do we read that He abstained from wine nor encouraged one to 'abstain' from wine- Scripture points out John the Baptist did- it does point out Jesus drank wine and would again, in the Kingdom of heaven- and of course we know Apostle Paul encouraged Timothy to drink some for his stomach- but according to the above, He IS the one that said of Himself, the Son of Man came eating and drinking- which brought on accusations of being a glutton and a drunkard. One would hardly accuse Him of being a 'drunkard' or 'winebibber' if what they were witnessing was not wine- but He is the one who said He drank (but not to excess, as that is sin)
How do we miss this?
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Wade
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Re: Hooch, Booze, etc.

Post by Wade »

I don't necessarily disagree but I tend to think human reasoning, suggestions, and assumptions tend to be outside having childlike faith. That is more of the concern to me.

I see in Christ a life of self denying, self sacrificing love for the good of others.
Today we live in a culture where alcohol and drugs (which aren't really different) are used almost always for pleasure and serving self. We have countless options today that we can choose different for less money and that opportunity should challenge our priorities in which we are choosing serving self or serving God and others.
That is a choice of each individual and when a congregation makes an application to abstain from alcohol because of a choice to focus on serving then I do believe that honors God.


I believe Jesus works with what is available within a culture and I in fact drink cultured tea (kombucha) for my digestive problems. :lol: ;)
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Valerie
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Re: Hooch, Booze, etc.

Post by Valerie »

Wade wrote:I don't necessarily disagree but I tend to think human reasoning, suggestions, and assumptions tend to be outside having childlike faith. That is more of the concern to me.

I see in Christ a life of self denying, self sacrificing love for the good of others.
Today we live in a culture where alcohol and drugs (which aren't really different) are used almost always for pleasure and serving self. We have countless options today that we can choose different for less money and that opportunity should challenge our priorities in which we are choosing serving self or serving God and others.
That is a choice of each individual and when a congregation makes an application to abstain from alcohol because of a choice to focus on serving then I do believe that honors God.


I believe Jesus works with what is available within a culture and I in fact drink cultured tea (kombucha) for my digestive problems. :lol: ;)
I agree with you Wade-

What I don't agree with is when people deny what Scripture says, or try to make it say something it doesn't say, or claim that the wine was really 'juice' (I know of pastor's who teach this) and then it makes Christians look like they are making something up, changing Scripture, or what have you-
I also don't agree with church ordinances that are 'outside of Scripture' BUT THEN when they learn of other denominations teachings use the "but that is not in Scripture" it is a double standard.
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silentreader
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Re: Hooch, Booze, etc.

Post by silentreader »

Valerie wrote:
Wade wrote:I don't necessarily disagree but I tend to think human reasoning, suggestions, and assumptions tend to be outside having childlike faith. That is more of the concern to me.

I see in Christ a life of self denying, self sacrificing love for the good of others.
Today we live in a culture where alcohol and drugs (which aren't really different) are used almost always for pleasure and serving self. We have countless options today that we can choose different for less money and that opportunity should challenge our priorities in which we are choosing serving self or serving God and others.
That is a choice of each individual and when a congregation makes an application to abstain from alcohol because of a choice to focus on serving then I do believe that honors God.


I believe Jesus works with what is available within a culture and I in fact drink cultured tea (kombucha) for my digestive problems. :lol: ;)
I agree with you Wade-

What I don't agree with is when people deny what Scripture says, or try to make it say something it doesn't say, or claim that the wine was really 'juice' (I know of pastor's who teach this) and then it makes Christians look like they are making something up, changing Scripture, or what have you-
I also don't agree with church ordinances that are 'outside of Scripture' BUT THEN when they learn of other denominations teachings use the "but that is not in Scripture" it is a double standard.
"Physician, heal thyself."
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Hats Off
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Re: Hooch, Booze, etc.

Post by Hats Off »

Valerie wrote:
Josh wrote:
Valerie wrote: yes-Jesus never turned water into drugs nor did He partake of drugs with His Apostles
We also have no record he ever ate chicken.
But we DO have a record that He drank wine, even being accused of a winebibber- Jesus wasn't against wine, He was against drunkeness, it doesn't seem this point you made is valid then?

I think a fellowship can make an ordinance that they will completely abstain from wine. It is however, an extra Biblical ordinance so when we are always saying 'that is not Scriptural' or question the early Church in their traditions that you cannot find in Scripture (specifically, ie. the 'oral' traditions Apostle Paul said to stand fast in) then it seems we are okay with adding ordinances &/or traditions not found in Scripture-
We testify to the harm that has been and is being done by alcohol abuse when we agree to abstain from alcohol. It is a way of life that frees us from excessive temptation and helps us to walk more fully in the Way. We don't insist that it is the only way to live but if you want to fellowship with us, you will need to agree to walk with us in this regard. We don't condemn others who do not abstain.
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