Hooch, Booze, etc.

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective

Which best describes your personal views on alcohol and alcohol consumption?

 
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Valerie
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Re: Hooch, Booze, etc.

Post by Valerie »

Hats Off wrote:
Valerie wrote:
Josh wrote:
We also have no record he ever ate chicken.
But we DO have a record that He drank wine, even being accused of a winebibber- Jesus wasn't against wine, He was against drunkeness, it doesn't seem this point you made is valid then?

I think a fellowship can make an ordinance that they will completely abstain from wine. It is however, an extra Biblical ordinance so when we are always saying 'that is not Scriptural' or question the early Church in their traditions that you cannot find in Scripture (specifically, ie. the 'oral' traditions Apostle Paul said to stand fast in) then it seems we are okay with adding ordinances &/or traditions not found in Scripture-
We testify to the harm that has been and is being done by alcohol abuse when we agree to abstain from alcohol. It is a way of life that frees us from excessive temptation and helps us to walk more fully in the Way. We don't insist that it is the only way to live but if you want to fellowship with us, you will need to agree to walk with us in this regard. We don't condemn others who do not abstain.
I have read this and totally undertand.
I just wonder how Anabaptists view the fact that Jesus & the Apostles did not abstain- nor even ask people to abstain- and even endured criticism for 'not' abstaining from religios folks who accused Jesus of being a glutton and drunkard-
Were there not problems from alcohol in those days as well? It seems there were because of the warnings in Holy Scripture, both old & new- but even knowing that AND the future, Jesus didn't abstain- I was wondering how Anabaptists reconcile this with their own understandings? (although I do know of many ANabaptists who drink alcohol, they admit, even if their own fellowship prophibits it).
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Josh
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Re: Hooch, Booze, etc.

Post by Josh »

Some Anabaptists don’t abstain, and they also have widespread problems with alcoholism. Many people who leave low Amish or Hutterite groups do so because of issues with alcohol and drug addiction, and look for a fellowship that demands a more scriptural lifestyle when it comes to addictions and drug/alcohol abuse.
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Wade
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Re: Hooch, Booze, etc.

Post by Wade »

Valerie wrote:
Hats Off wrote:
Valerie wrote:
But we DO have a record that He drank wine, even being accused of a winebibber- Jesus wasn't against wine, He was against drunkeness, it doesn't seem this point you made is valid then?

I think a fellowship can make an ordinance that they will completely abstain from wine. It is however, an extra Biblical ordinance so when we are always saying 'that is not Scriptural' or question the early Church in their traditions that you cannot find in Scripture (specifically, ie. the 'oral' traditions Apostle Paul said to stand fast in) then it seems we are okay with adding ordinances &/or traditions not found in Scripture-
We testify to the harm that has been and is being done by alcohol abuse when we agree to abstain from alcohol. It is a way of life that frees us from excessive temptation and helps us to walk more fully in the Way. We don't insist that it is the only way to live but if you want to fellowship with us, you will need to agree to walk with us in this regard. We don't condemn others who do not abstain.
I have read this and totally undertand.
I just wonder how Anabaptists view the fact that Jesus & the Apostles did not abstain- nor even ask people to abstain- and even endured criticism for 'not' abstaining from religios folks who accused Jesus of being a glutton and drunkard-
Were there not problems from alcohol in those days as well? It seems there were because of the warnings in Holy Scripture, both old & new- but even knowing that AND the future, Jesus didn't abstain- I was wondering how Anabaptists reconcile this with their own understandings? (although I do know of many ANabaptists who drink alcohol, they admit, even if their own fellowship prophibits it).
I don't think you do understand...
In the culture of Christ's day they did not have the options we do today.
Since we can at least agree that no drunkard will be part of the kingdom of God, then if you could abstain and that help even one soul from destruction - would you?
And what makes you better than that one soul in eventually not falling yourself?
And how does you drinking alcohol support serving others in encouraging a self-sacrificing loving faith?
And if it doesn't help why be so persistent? I mean if one wants be so legalistic about doing exactly as Jesus did then why aren't we all wearing tunics or robes and having no where to lay our heads? Why aren't you walking on water? Or are you?
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Valerie
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Re: Hooch, Booze, etc.

Post by Valerie »

I think you misunderstand me Wade- I am not pushing 'for' alcohol at all.
John the Baptist and Nazarites took a vow to abstain- did that mean they had no other options to drink? You make it sound like Jesus and the Apostles drank because there were not the same choices we have today. That is not what Scripture says, otherwise why would John the Baptist and Nazarites abstain?
However, Jesus & His Apostles did not, nor did they teach to, and of course I understand the problem today, and it is an 'ancient' problem.

I was asking the question to see how Anabaptists (most) reconcile this, if they take a negative view of Jesus having no problem with having wine- would you give Him this same lecture?
Am not sure you're line of questioning for me is fair- I didn't start this thread but I am interested in this perspective on it just to see how Anabaptists reconcile this fact, not because I encourage drinking AT ALL- and am not sure I appreciate that implication- but since Jesus is always used as our example to follow, I wondered if Anabaptists that do abstain, take issue with Jesus feeling the freedom to have drink & even endure criticism/accusations over it (like I am it seems)
Apostle Paul in Romans 14 does make it clear how to apply many of these freedoms- in the case of stumbling a brother, or sister, of course I would not! I did serve in an addiction ministry for several years so it's not like I am insensitive to the issue- or addictions & strongholds in general.
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Bootstrap
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Re: Hooch, Booze, etc.

Post by Bootstrap »

I didn't vote because I can't pick just one option. I agree with these statements:
  • Alcohol is a gift from God to be used in moderation
  • Alcohol can be a good medicine. (But it's not hugely important as a medicine, and can be abused like any other medicine).
  • Alcohol can be a temptation. (I don't avoid it, but I do keep an eye on it).
  • Alcohol can cause others to stumble, so I avoid it. (When I am in settings where it would cause others to fall into sin).
I have concerns with these choices:
  • Alcohol is a gift from God to be used in (private) moderation - if I had to hide it, I would be concerned about why.
  • Alcohol can be a good medicine - using alcohol as medicine can lead to addiction
  • Alcohol can cause others to stumble, so I avoid it. - If the issue is that it might make others fall into sin, then I need to be careful not to do so, but if the issue is avoiding offense I want to be careful about being an eye-servant. If I were a member of a fellowship that had an agreement to not use alcohol, I would need to honor my word, but not out of fear for what others think.
  • "Alcohol" is an alternative spelling of "Satan" - clearly, Jesus did drink, he did not serve Satan.
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Wade
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Re: Hooch, Booze, etc.

Post by Wade »

Valerie wrote: I was asking the question to see how Anabaptists (most) reconcile this, if they take a negative view of Jesus having no problem with having wine- would you give Him this same lecture?
...I am interested in this perspective on it just to see how Anabaptists reconcile this fact..
Your stating that Anabaptists (most) take a negative view of Jesus having no problem with having wine as a fact!? :?
Does that sound like a question, observation, or accusation?
Are you not stating your own conclusion excusing it by "asking a question"?

Can you see why you are not getting the replies you are seeking or positive ones? :)
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Valerie
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Re: Hooch, Booze, etc.

Post by Valerie »

Wade wrote:
Valerie wrote: I was asking the question to see how Anabaptists (most) reconcile this, if they take a negative view of Jesus having no problem with having wine- would you give Him this same lecture?
...I am interested in this perspective on it just to see how Anabaptists reconcile this fact..
Your stating that Anabaptists (most) take a negative view of Jesus having no problem with having wine as a fact!? :?
Does that sound like a question, observation, or accusation?
Are you not stating your own conclusion excusing it by "asking a question"?

Can you see why you are not getting the replies you are seeking or positive ones? :)
Again, you're not reading my statement- I asked "IF" they take a negative view of it, you're saying that I am stating that Anabaptsts (most) take a negative view of Jesus having no problem- see the difference?

I believe but could be wrong, many are not replying because i have found my own Anabaptists friends to be somewhat secretive about their viewpoints in front of other Anabaptists about their own drinking of alcohol- but that has nothing to do with my actual question about perspective on Jesus lack of abstaining and how they see that-

I will drop the question, did not mean for it to ruffle feathers-
For the record, Boots view on it aligns with my own as far as personal understanding of it-
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KingdomBuilder
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Re: Hooch, Booze, etc.

Post by KingdomBuilder »

I'm not so sure I can agree with abstinence on the basis of avoiding pleasure, solely.
If, and when, Christianity turns into a game of mere self-deprivation, things get really bizarre. Is every degree and source of pleasure wrong? Surely not. Should we abstain from spices and herbs because they taste good? Isn't the only reason we use those for "pleasure" as well? How about all those sweet, sweet deserts and rich, buttery meals? Those aren't necessary- they are pleasures.

So what do we look to in order to define what is and what is not acceptable pleasure? The culture?

Pleasure isn't always the antithesis of Godliness is my point. In fact, I think that pleasure is a God-given principle that is to be enjoyed and operated within his constraints, as expressed in his Word.
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Wade
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Re: Hooch, Booze, etc.

Post by Wade »

Agreed. But just for balance and not to take away here is some scripture:

Matthew 24
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?

46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.

48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;

49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;

50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,

51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
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Bootstrap
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Re: Hooch, Booze, etc.

Post by Bootstrap »

if I acted just like Jesus, there might be some religious people who would call me a drunkard and a glutton. They called him those things. That makes me suspect that being as strict as possible about these things does not necessarily make us more like Jesus.
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