"Voluntary Christian Order" or "The Remnant"

[Josh]

If we are going to rank churches based on evangelism metrics, the most productive churches at reaching the unchurched lost are fringe groups like Jehovah’s Witnesses.

[Sudsy]

If we are going to rank churches based on evangelism metrics, the most productive churches at reaching the unchurched lost are fringe groups like Jehovah’s Witnesses.

Since evangelism is defined as 'the spreading of the Christian gospel by public preaching or personal witness', I think many of us would question whether the JWs and the Mormons are reaching the unchurched lost with the same Gospel that Paul preached. JWs would not see us as 'saved' as they appear to believe that unless we believe in Christ's sacrificial death and the invisible 1914 enthronement of Christ (as taught in the Watchtower magazine) we cannot be saved.

Those with a 'remnant' view seem to include a certain view on what the Gospel of Jesus Christ is all about and I believe this is an area that affects just how we go about making disciples. I'm still not clear on what some Anabaptists understand to be how the unchurched are reached. It is one thing to point out the flaws in how some Evangelicals evangelize and quite another to show how it should be done proven by results in radically changed lives.

Would it be fair to say when it comes to furthering God's Kingdom, in general, that Evangelicals are mainly concerned with quantity whereas Anabaptists are mainly concerned with quality. If both are not the focus that produces results, then neither will survive. Yes/no ?

[Hats Off]

Seeing our faith in action speaks louder to these people than all the words we could preach from the pulpit. We quietly answer their questions - it is not about our good works.

The praise of men would need to be very important for us to spend weeks and months helping - if that were why we were doing these things.

Question if you care to respond - if we engage in these areas and give it our best and yet we don't see the unchurched being reborn and becoming a disciple in our local churches, then what do you think is missing ? Are we to believe that 'few there be that find it' speaking of the 'narrow road' that we should not expect the Kingdom to grow much and in some cases, not at all in a local church ? Seems to me some Anabaptists have taken this view and are not that concerned about no growth of unchurched converts to Jesus.

Do we ever have any promise that the unchurched will hear us and follow Jesus? The rich young ruler turned away from Jesus because it seemed the cost of following was too great.
Should we work at making the narrow road broader so it would be easier for more people?
Do I have to know how many people I have influenced to have faith in God?

[Sudsy]

Seeing our faith in action speaks louder to these people than all the words we could preach from the pulpit. We quietly answer their questions - it is not about our good works.

The praise of men would need to be very important for us to spend weeks and months helping - if that were why we were doing these things.

Question if you care to respond - if we engage in these areas and give it our best and yet we don't see the unchurched being reborn and becoming a disciple in our local churches, then what do you think is missing ? Are we to believe that 'few there be that find it' speaking of the 'narrow road' that we should not expect the Kingdom to grow much and in some cases, not at all in a local church ? Seems to me some Anabaptists have taken this view and are not that concerned about no growth of unchurched converts to Jesus.

Do we ever have any promise that the unchurched will hear us and follow Jesus? The rich young ruler turned away from Jesus because it seemed the cost of following was too great.

We have a command to evangelize 'make disciples' so I don't think Jesus is saying just be obedient to this command but don't expect it to be fruitful. I was blessed to have unchurched parents that were evangelized and after coming out of darkness into the Light they spent their lives sharing this Good News with others, mostly the unchurched.

The rich young ruler thought he could have eternal life by perfect obedience to God's standards. Jesus gives him an answer regarding perfect obedience and tells him to go sell all his possessions and give them to the poor. Obviously we are not required to do that to have eternal life but it points out we cannot have two masters. We cannot serve God and mammon. Perfect obedience is impossible and we all are sinners needing the grace of God to save us which is a gift not anything we can earn or do.

Should we work at making the narrow road broader so it would be easier for more people?

No and neither should we make it harder like the Pharisees were. Jesus is the way and we should do our best to follow Him and point His Way to others.

Do I have to know how many people I have influenced to have faith in God?

I believe a living faith creates a desire in us to see others receive the gift we have received. There may be many we

[Sudsy]

Seeing our faith in action speaks louder to these people than all the words we could preach from the pulpit. We quietly answer their questions - it is not about our good works.

The praise of men would need to be very important for us to spend weeks and months helping - if that were why we were doing these things.

Question if you care to respond - if we engage in these areas and give it our best and yet we don't see the unchurched being reborn and becoming a disciple in our local churches, then what do you think is missing ? Are we to believe that 'few there be that find it' speaking of the 'narrow road' that we should not expect the Kingdom to grow much and in some cases, not at all in a local church ? Seems to me some Anabaptists have taken this view and are not that concerned about no growth of unchurched converts to Jesus.

Do we ever have any promise that the unchurched will hear us and follow Jesus? The rich young ruler turned away from Jesus because it seemed the cost of following was too great.

We have a command to evangelize 'make disciples' so I don't think Jesus is saying just be obedient to this command but don't expect it to be fruitful. I was blessed to have unchurched parents that were evangelized and after coming out of darkness into the Light they spent their lives sharing this Good News with others, mostly the unchurched.

The rich young ruler thought he could have eternal life by perfect obedience to God's standards. Jesus gives him an answer regarding perfect obedience and tells him to go sell all his possessions and give them to the poor. Obviously we are not required to do that to have eternal life but it points out we cannot have two masters. We cannot serve God and mammon. Perfect obedience is impossible and we all are sinners needing the grace of God to save us which is a gift not anything we can earn or do.

Should we work at making the narrow road broader so it would be easier for more people?

No and neither should we make it harder like the Pharisees were. Jesus is the way and we should do our best to follow Him and point His Way to others.

Do I have to know how many people I have influenced to have faith in God?

I believe a living faith creates a desire in us to see others receive the gift we have received. This is how the two greatest commandments work themselves out in a believer. And there may be many we have influenced in some way towards God that we are not aware of. However, a sower does not go forth to sow and not be there to reap a harvest. That is why he sows. Likewise we should expect a harvest. Jesus says the problem is more one that there are not enough reapers. God draws man but uses us as means in the reaping of souls.

Got to go, more foods is being pushed on me.

[Josh]

A present day challenge in the COGIC-M is that the rate of response to tract work exceeds our ability to plant churches with good, established leadership. So in some places there are informal congregations with no resident leaders or missionaries.

I’m not really sure how we are supposed to “do better”. I’m all about urban evangelism in North America too, but I have yet to find any congregation in our church that doesn’t have at least 1 non-ethnic Anabaptist member.

Instead of a myopic focus on how many numbers of people “we” convert (when in reality God is the one who gets people born again, not us), it’s good to take a long term focus to just where we are going. Establishing good, solid discipleship is essential. And the Anabaptist model of discipleship is one that has stood the test of time.

[Sudsy]

A present day challenge in the COGIC-M is that the rate of response to tract work exceeds our ability to plant churches with good, established leadership. So in some places there are informal congregations with no resident leaders or missionaries.

I’m not really sure how we are supposed to “do better”. I’m all about urban evangelism in North America too, but I have yet to find any congregation in our church that doesn’t have at least 1 non-ethnic Anabaptist member.

Instead of a myopic focus on how many numbers of people “we” convert (when in reality God is the one who gets people born again, not us), it’s good to take a long term focus to just where we are going. Establishing good, solid discipleship is essential. And the Anabaptist model of discipleship is one that has stood the test of time.

Not convinced that there is such a thing as an 'Anabaptist model of discipleship' as there seems to be quite a variety of beliefs and practises on what 'make disciples' means. We create these 'voluntary Christian orders' and place emphasis in what we see as most important in making disciples. Our MB church is of the more modern, evangelical kind and what we would consider being a disciple is quite different from various other Anabaptist groups. And I think all of us believe we are interpreting the scriptures and adapting our practise to be a true disciple of Christ.

In our area there is quite a selection of these 'orders' to join. It is good you have found one that best corresponds with your understanding of discipleship. I think most in North America still don't even know what Anabaptism is mainly about. I think many know about Mennoniteism and view it as a Mennonite (ethnic) form of the Christian religion. I recently read this as it referred to my area and mentioned my city where this Mennonite fellow sees racism in Mennonite churches and culture. I know this is a concern for some Mennonite groups - https://pastorsinexile.org/2016/05/09/i ... re-racist/

[Hats Off]

[quote]Jesus isn’t white, Jesus isn’t Canadian, and Jesus isn’t Mennonite.[/quote]from the link Sudsy refers to. Some of us are just too uneducated to realize what we are doing. My wife mentioned that the pharmacist we saw last night looked and sounded Canadian. I tried to point out that many of the middle Eastern pharmacists we meet may also be Canadian. Well but they come from across the ocean. Well but so did we. The writer of the article referred to has Croatian and Polish ancestry but he looks Canadian. What should a Canadian or American look like? Many of the black North Americans have been in our countries longer than many Irish and Scottish and English and Germans. Whether we are a voluntary order or the remnant, whether we are the one true church or just have the one true faith, we need to do better in the area of "racial" discrimination.

[RZehr]

So the plain culture is the problem and it would be better to have an American culture or something else?

[Hats Off]

I would suggest that where we are, it is not the plain culture that is the problem. But I do believe the writer that Sudsy referred to had a very valid point. We think a Mennonite should look like a Mennonite or at least what we think a Mennonite looks like. We need a bit more of the Canadian culture within our plain culture, so we recognize people as people, not as "foreigners" because their first language may not be English or their skin colour is not white like ours.