"Voluntary Christian Order" or "The Remnant"

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
Ernie
Posts: 5447
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2016 2:48 pm
Location: Central PA
Affiliation: Anabaptist Umbrella
Contact:

"Voluntary Christian Order" or "The Remnant"

Post by Ernie »

Should plain, separated Christians view themselves as a "Voluntary Christian Order" or as "The Remnant"?
How does one's view of these matters effect one's ecclesiology?

"Christian Order" or "The Remnant" is an article I wrote based on some of our discussions in the past on MennoDiscuss.

This article is the precursor for the Corporate Rule of Life article that is being discussed here.
0 x
The old woodcutter spoke again. “It is impossible to talk with you. You always draw conclusions. Life is so vast, yet you judge all of life with one page or one word. You see only a fragment. Unless you know the whole story, how can you judge?"
Ernie
Posts: 5447
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2016 2:48 pm
Location: Central PA
Affiliation: Anabaptist Umbrella
Contact:

Re: "Voluntary Christian Order" or "The Remnant"

Post by Ernie »

joshuabgood wrote:Ernie - would you commune with people out of your "order?"
Yes
0 x
The old woodcutter spoke again. “It is impossible to talk with you. You always draw conclusions. Life is so vast, yet you judge all of life with one page or one word. You see only a fragment. Unless you know the whole story, how can you judge?"
Heirbyadoption
Posts: 1012
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2016 1:57 pm
Affiliation: Brethren

Re: "Voluntary Christian Order" or "The Remnant"

Post by Heirbyadoption »

This "gradual entry" concept seems to be an integral part of the "voluntary christian order" vision that you present. I recognize it has some similarities in the first couple centuries of the church, but is it more or less a practical application as you would understand it, or do you actually have a particular Scriptural example/foundation which suggests it's practice in a congregation or fellowship?
0 x
Hats Off
Posts: 2532
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2017 6:42 pm
Affiliation: Plain Menno OO

Re: "Voluntary Christian Order" or "The Remnant"

Post by Hats Off »

The Remnant seems to almost leave the idea of One True Church - that we are a faithful remnant in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation. Out teaching sometimes leads us to think in that direction. I would rather think of being a Voluntary Christian Order where we, as a body, have agreed that for the good of all we will have some guidance and direction to help us remain faithful, without judging others who have different ways of living out the one true faith.
0 x
User avatar
Josh
Posts: 23827
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2016 6:23 pm
Location: 1000' ASL
Affiliation: The church of God

Re: "Voluntary Christian Order" or "The Remnant"

Post by Josh »

Ernie wrote:Should plain, separated Christians view themselves as a "Voluntary Christian Order" or as "The Remnant"?
How does one's view of these matters effect one's ecclesiology?

"Christian Order" or "The Remnant" is an article I wrote based on some of our discussions in the past on MennoDiscuss.

This article is the precursor for the Corporate Rule of Life article that is being discussed here.
Why not both?

The Remnant exists both inside Voluntary Christian Orders and outside of it.

When a Voluntary Christian Order is composed entirely of Remnant people, and its Order’s guidelines have the mission of keeping people in the Remnant, identifying people who don’t want to be the Remnant and expelling them, and encouraging the unbeliever to become part of the Remnant (whether inside or outside of a VCO), then you have essentially a pure church.
0 x
Ernie
Posts: 5447
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2016 2:48 pm
Location: Central PA
Affiliation: Anabaptist Umbrella
Contact:

Re: "Voluntary Christian Order" or "The Remnant"

Post by Ernie »

Josh wrote:
Ernie wrote:Should plain, separated Christians view themselves as a "Voluntary Christian Order" or as "The Remnant"?
How does one's view of these matters effect one's ecclesiology?

"Christian Order" or "The Remnant" is an article I wrote based on some of our discussions in the past on MennoDiscuss.

This article is the precursor for the Corporate Rule of Life article that is being discussed here.
Why not both?

Did you read the article? I talk about the ways that I believe I am part of the remnant.
0 x
The old woodcutter spoke again. “It is impossible to talk with you. You always draw conclusions. Life is so vast, yet you judge all of life with one page or one word. You see only a fragment. Unless you know the whole story, how can you judge?"
Ernie
Posts: 5447
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2016 2:48 pm
Location: Central PA
Affiliation: Anabaptist Umbrella
Contact:

Re: "Voluntary Christian Order" or "The Remnant"

Post by Ernie »

Heirbyadoption wrote:This "gradual entry" concept seems to be an integral part of the "voluntary christian order" vision that you present. I recognize it has some similarities in the first couple centuries of the church, but is it more or less a practical application as you would understand it, or do you actually have a particular Scriptural example/foundation which suggests it's practice in a congregation or fellowship?
The concept I see all through the NT. From Jesus giving communion to those who would soon deny and desert him to the list of qualifications for leaders. Then there are scriptures about supporting the weak, comforting the feebleminded, etc. makes it obvious to me that not everyone in the church can be spiritually mature. "Gradual entry" is an attempt to return to an early church understanding of church membership. The word member in the Bible refers to being part of the Body of Christ. Submission is the word used to describe one's relationship to a local part of Christ's body.
If a professing Christian wants to team with me, I'm interested in knowing who he is submitted to and what kind of people he wants to be submitted to. Although official membership is an interesting piece of information (as it gives me the person's religious surname) it means very little in practice. There are tons of people who are members of a church but are not submitted to their church and sometimes submitted to no one.

The details of "gradual entry" as proposed in the article are more or less a practical application. It offers an alternative to the concept that anyone who is an official member of the church (regardless of their age and maturity) can vote and/or commune, and anyone who is not an official member cannot.
0 x
The old woodcutter spoke again. “It is impossible to talk with you. You always draw conclusions. Life is so vast, yet you judge all of life with one page or one word. You see only a fragment. Unless you know the whole story, how can you judge?"
User avatar
Josh
Posts: 23827
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2016 6:23 pm
Location: 1000' ASL
Affiliation: The church of God

Re: "Voluntary Christian Order" or "The Remnant"

Post by Josh »

Ernie wrote:
Josh wrote:
Ernie wrote:Should plain, separated Christians view themselves as a "Voluntary Christian Order" or as "The Remnant"?
How does one's view of these matters effect one's ecclesiology?

"Christian Order" or "The Remnant" is an article I wrote based on some of our discussions in the past on MennoDiscuss.

This article is the precursor for the Corporate Rule of Life article that is being discussed here.
Why not both?

Did you read the article? I talk about the ways that I believe I am part of the remnant.
Perhaps the question to ask is if you believe I am part of the remnant.

For example, definitions like “sanctity of marriage” become important (along with no consensus at all on what that actually means) and what is remnant vs order of life becomes blurred. This is basically the Anabaptist problem in a nutshell.

I guess I do see that the fundamental-conservative, moderate-conservative, and intermediate-conservative groups have all basically formed one single church (within each of those categories). So they basically believe they are both the remnant and the true church, although each of them has slightly different order of life.

But someone from Keystone will be convinced a Pilgrim person is on godless legalism and someone from Hope who is street witnessing won’t even refer local seekers to the nearest and only churches because they are BMA, Holdeman, and Apostolic Christian. It’s hard to put in words how frustrating this whole situation is.
0 x
Heirbyadoption
Posts: 1012
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2016 1:57 pm
Affiliation: Brethren

Re: "Voluntary Christian Order" or "The Remnant"

Post by Heirbyadoption »

Ernie wrote:
Heirbyadoption wrote:This "gradual entry" concept seems to be an integral part of the "voluntary christian order" vision that you present. I recognize it has some similarities in the first couple centuries of the church, but is it more or less a practical application as you would understand it, or do you actually have a particular Scriptural example/foundation which suggests it's practice in a congregation or fellowship?
The concept I see all through the NT. From Jesus giving communion to those who would soon deny and desert him to the list of qualifications for leaders. Then there are scriptures about supporting the weak, comforting the feebleminded, etc. makes it obvious to me that not everyone in the church can be spiritually mature. "Gradual entry" is an attempt to return to an early church understanding of church membership. The word member in the Bible refers to being part of the Body of Christ. Submission is the word used to describe one's relationship to a local part of Christ's body.
If a professing Christian wants to team with me, I'm interested in knowing who he is submitted to and what kind of people he wants to be submitted to. Although official membership is an interesting piece of information (as it gives me the person's religious surname) it means very little in practice. There are tons of people who are members of a church but are not submitted to their church and sometimes submitted to no one.

The details of "gradual entry" as proposed in the article are more or less a practical application. It offers an alternative to the concept that anyone who is an official member of the church (regardless of their age and maturity) can vote and/or commune, and anyone who is not an official member cannot.
Fascinating... I don't personally find that concept in any of those examples, other than a recognition of leadership perhaps bearing more responsibilities, but we do each come to the Scriptures with different emphases and ways of looking at things. I'd be interested to know if you have applied such a process among your congregation yet, and how its working out. You're probably already aware of this, but we actually have a congregation discussing implementing such a "tiered-membership" process; it will be interesting to see where they go with it.

And I guess I'll go back and read your articles again, but the process of discerning who is strong and weak and basing their involvement or responsibilities upon that discernment seems a bit of a potentially sticky subject.
0 x
User avatar
Josh
Posts: 23827
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2016 6:23 pm
Location: 1000' ASL
Affiliation: The church of God

Re: "Voluntary Christian Order" or "The Remnant"

Post by Josh »

At what “tier” is marriage to someone of a higher “tier” allowed? I think that’s the best test to figure out just what the real attitudes here are.
0 x
Post Reply