"Voluntary Christian Order" or "The Remnant"

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
Judas Maccabeus
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Re: "Voluntary Christian Order" or "The Remnant"

Post by Judas Maccabeus »

Hats Off wrote:In the plain churches that I am familiar with, there are a number of non-ethnic Swiss names among leadership. This is the case in Orthodox Mennonite to Conservative Mennonites, in Ontario and the US. If you become a member of one of these churches, you are equal to everyone else.
It is, in my estimation, the same in my conservative mennonite conference as well.

J.M.
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Sudsy
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Re: "Voluntary Christian Order" or "The Remnant"

Post by Sudsy »

Hats Off wrote:
Sudsy wrote:Thanks Ernie. I read your article and found it quite interesting. Someone once said they dreamed that upon entering heaven they noticed a small group of folks staying quite apart from the rest and they asked who they were. The answer was that they were a group who thought they were 'the remnant' and they were quite 'put out' that God had allowed such a group that no man could number into His heaven. Folks they would never break bread with when on earth.

Imo, if any 'Order' or whatever it may be called is mainly focused on their uniform way of being the church and are not doing what Jesus did (going to where the lost and hurting are to save them from their sins) then whatever form of practise a group creates has missed the main point of being a Jesus follower. And when He left He sent us the Holy Spirit to guide us and empower us to not let sin rule anymore in our bodies and to be bold in sharing the Gospel.

Is it mainly about developing standard church expectations of one another to be part of our group and finding a way to develop those expectations to reach a mature local church ? Or is that the work of the Holy Spirit who works in individual lives to bring about a sanctification that God is pleased with ? It often sounds to me like the Holy Spirit is left out of what only He can achieve. Yes, He uses us as means to spur each other on but I have trouble with the extent that some take their involvement and to me, we could easily be interfering with His work and in His timing.

Unless Anabaptists, in general, do not take on more of an evangelical mindset like Jesus had, then I doubt it will ever make much of a contribution to the number spoken of here -

After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands.

Imo, we don't need more accommodating ways of doing church as much as we need to see the demonstration of the power of God reaching out and transforming lives that continue to grow in grace as they in turn reach out to this lost and dying world. If my MB church did not have that focus, I would soon be back in some group of Evangelicals who did.

I suppose this description of 'church' would be considered an 'Evangelical Order' within Anabaptism if I got your article right and I should accept other 'Orders' as they chose to follow Christ. Right ?
Sudsy, in my opinion you are judging the plain Anabaptist groups with insufficient knowledge. There is a difference in how we think and in how we interpret the Holy Spirit's leading. Listening to the Holy Spirit is very important to plain Anabaptists. There is a difference in how we work. I relate the following not to brag but to explain the practical way in which we work.

Yesterday, my wife and I were with a group of plain Mennonites, as we started framing a house to replace one damaged in spring flooding. 5 men travelled 6 hours to be at the jobsite by 9:30, leaving again by 5:30 in hopes of being home by midnight. Four others besides us travelled the hour and a half, working util past dark to return home in the evening. 7 youth left their homes this morning at 2:30 to be at the jobsite by 8 am. They will spend the night sleeping on air mattresses in a corner of a community centre, then work a full day tomorrow before returning home again. The supervisor and his wife arrived on the job on Tuesday and are staying in a rented cottage until Friday. He will be back next week if we have volunteers and back again after New Years.

Kara is a mother of two little girls; her husband returned from a tour of duty in Afghanistan severely damaged by the trauma of war. He is no longer able to function as a husband and father or to financially support them. Kara bought her house less than a year before the flood. A previous home was destroyed by fire. A tree fell on her car this summer. She is making mortgage payments on a house that no longer exists and is paying rent as well. Without help, she was doomed to raising her children in subsidized housing - I don't know what that means in the USA, but in Canada, that is not where anyone chooses to raise their children. She could see no way out by herself.

Mennonite Disaster Service responded first in the spring to help gut flood ravaged basements; in mid summer MDS was involved in making repairs to homes where the home owners were, due to age or other circumstances, unable to help themselves. Now this winter we are rebuilding two homes that were condemned because of flood related issues.

MDS likes to use local Amish and Mennonite volunteers whenever possible to our church group was called upon to help organize volunteer efforts. My wife and I are involved in notifying other churches of the need for volunteers, both construction workers as well as cooks to feed the volunteers. Another one of our members has volunteered to supervise the rebuilding of these houses. We will call on volunteers from more than a dozen plain Amish and Mennonite groups to do the work, and they will come, even though MDS, Christian Aid Ministries, Storm Aid, Weaverland Disaster Relief, and others are also calling for volunteers to help with disaster relief work in warmer parts of North America. Numerous hours of volunteer labour are provided every year with some people spending a month or more on projects every year.

These volunteers do not respond because of the pay they receive although that is also huge. They go out of love, providing the labour to rebuild and repair homes but not only do the recipients receive homes, best of all they receive hope. They feel the acts of love in a way that no amount of evangelizing with words could accomplish. Our people do what we are good at - helping with our hands and management skills - the spiritual blessings flow to both the helpers and the helped. But there is more to it than just the work carried out by organizations like MDS.

On our project, we have a very active group of community association members with some very valuable skills who did the behind the scenes work to make our work possible. Some of us were interviewed by local and National media. A flooring contractor from the city was touched by the stories and is supplying and probably installing all the flooring in both our houses. He is reaching out to other building sub-trades in the city to also take part. We have believers working with unbelievers, a community of people reaching out to Kara and the other couple out of love. What an impact these plain Mennonite farmers and carpenters can have on an extended group of people as they quietly and inconspicuously go about doing what they do best.
Thankyou for this sharing of the good deeds that Christians in your area are doing. We have Mennonites and other non-Anabaptist groups doing similar things in our area and they make news in our local newspaper most every week. I spent some time in the Salvation Army and had a chance to become aware and participate in various good will ministries. Actually, Jesus said we are to shine our lights doing good deeds that bring God glory. And although I believe Christians should be leading the way in these endeavours, there are various non-Christian people doing the same. Various religious people even outshine born again believers in these areas as they are counting on these goods deeds to save them from hell.

Regarding the Holy Spirit's leading I would like to inquire a bit about how you see our good deeds affecting others to repent of their sins and become a follower of Christ. I believe we are to take care of other Christians who need help in this life but the most important help we can give an unbeliever is to seek the salvation of their souls as we help them with earthly things. Paul says in Romans 10 - Anyone who calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved. But how shall they ask him to save them unless they believe in him? And how can they believe in him if they have never heard about him? And how can they hear about him unless someone tells them? So, unless we are using words and not just deeds to talk openly about Jesus and what He has done to save us from our sins, then we are just another good will group.

From what I have read the earliest Anabaptists were extremely vocal evangelists and this is how they spread. Actually this lead to many of their deaths. Here in North America, and perhaps to avoid looking like Evangelicals and what some of them preach as an 'easy beliefism' gospel and look 'too worldly', Mennonites in our area, in general, are not vocal and winning the unchurched. Yet they are highly recognized and appreciated for their good deeds.

One thing Jesus pointed out is that if they treated Him with abuse, even through all the good deeds that He did, they would persecute His followers likewise. And what brings on this persecution ? I would suggest it is hearing that good deeds or any way except through Jesus can save us. And so what I see happening is that we love the praise and good feelings that come with good deeds but we avoid openly talking about Jesus because, as the scripture points out, to many this is foolishness and/or very offensive.

Now if I'm viewing the plain Anabaptists or not-so-plain Anabaptists as both straying from the early Anabaptist leadings of the Spirit, please explain. I see the Salvation Army as another group that once was primarily about the salvation of the lost in their good deed ministry ('soap, soup and salvation') and in my experience with them the salvation message was often just not there. Jesus said the salvation of our souls was what is of most importance. I think we can then judge our own light shining through our good deeds and see if they are resulting in new souls becoming citizens of the Kingdom. Eternal results matters. Actually it is what matters most.

Is Jesus being seen in us by them and is the glory going to Him in our good deeds or our we, our group, mostly what people applaud ? Goods deeds can become a means for our good feelings and obtaining respect by others and is this what it means to shine our lights ? Imo, it isn't about us but about others and their greatest need is Jesus in their life.

Do you see this differently ? Open to others thoughts on this also.
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Hats Off
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Re: "Voluntary Christian Order" or "The Remnant"

Post by Hats Off »

I will not try to explain our viewpoint and actions any longer. I am not interested in debate. You continue to do what you think you need to do but don't try to convince me that I also need to do things your way.
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lesterb
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Re: "Voluntary Christian Order" or "The Remnant"

Post by lesterb »

Jesus gave illustrations of two judgment scenes in his teaching.

In the first, the people on the left protested that they had done many wonderful signs in his name.

[bible]mat 7,21-23[/bible]

In the second, He said this to the same people

[bible]mat 25,41-46[/bible]

Neither one of these show evangelism as being a criteria in judgment. In the second case, the ones on the right were doing the kind of things that HO listed and that was why they were let in. One thing you find when you get involved in talking to a lot of people is that people out there are sick and tired of people who claim to be Christians but act the same as everyone else on weekdays. They want to see genuine Christianity in action. People who read the Bible, then do what it says.
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Sudsy
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Re: "Voluntary Christian Order" or "The Remnant"

Post by Sudsy »

Hats Off wrote:I will not try to explain our viewpoint and actions any longer. I am not interested in debate. You continue to do what you think you need to do but don't try to convince me that I also need to do things your way.
Sorry, not into trying to convince you but sharing what I think about the topic. We both believe we are following an Anabaptist way of doing some things and are free to disagree. If you want to let it rest in what we have said, that is OK with me.
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Sudsy
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Re: "Voluntary Christian Order" or "The Remnant"

Post by Sudsy »

lesterb wrote:Jesus gave illustrations of two judgment scenes in his teaching.

In the first, the people on the left protested that they had done many wonderful signs in his name.

[bible]mat 7,21-23[/bible]

In the second, He said this to the same people

[bible]mat 25,41-46[/bible]

Neither one of these show evangelism as being a criteria in judgment. In the second case, the ones on the right were doing the kind of things that HO listed and that was why they were let in. One thing you find when you get involved in talking to a lot of people is that people out there are sick and tired of people who claim to be Christians but act the same as everyone else on weekdays. They want to see genuine Christianity in action. People who read the Bible, then do what it says.
The way I understand this is that Jesus was saying 'regardless of all these religious acts you did even in my name, you never knew me'. They never had established a relationship with Jesus to know Him but went through religious practises only. Calling Him Lord and making Him Lord are quite different.

The things listed were examples of what knowing Jesus does to one's heart and causes these things to happen. It isn't about just doing these things to be saved but being born again should result in things such as these.

I agree that professing Christians can be an area to be ridiculed when they don't reflect what Jesus said as a believer who has the Holy Spirit living within, a possessing Christian. I also think there are those that think they are doing what the Bible says and appearing to be Christ followers that are not born of the Spirit. They, too, could be those saying 'Lord, Lord'.

We all need to search our own hearts and consider if we are professing only or actually have been reborn. The early Anabaptists were strong believers in a new birth that radically changed the heart not just the practise. Sadly, you are right that many professing Christians have not been born again. They only know Jesus in the way satan does. They know about Him to some extent in their heads but are not interested in applying what He said in their daily lives.
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Hats Off
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Re: "Voluntary Christian Order" or "The Remnant"

Post by Hats Off »

Seeing our faith in action speaks louder to these people than all the words we could preach from the pulpit. We quietly answer their questions - it is not about our good works.

The praise of men would need to be very important for us to spend weeks and months helping - if that were why we were doing these things.
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Sudsy
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Re: "Voluntary Christian Order" or "The Remnant"

Post by Sudsy »

Hats Off wrote:Seeing our faith in action speaks louder to these people than all the words we could preach from the pulpit. We quietly answer their questions - it is not about our good works.

The praise of men would need to be very important for us to spend weeks and months helping - if that were why we were doing these things.
Question if you care to respond - if we engage in these areas and give it our best and yet we don't see the unchurched being reborn and becoming a disciple in our local churches, then what do you think is missing ? Are we to believe that 'few there be that find it' speaking of the 'narrow road' that we should not expect the Kingdom to grow much and in some cases, not at all in a local church ? Seems to me some Anabaptists have taken this view and are not that concerned about no growth of unchurched converts to Jesus.

My wife and I have often, and again today, talked about what Jesus said about our lights shining in a way that glorifies God and impacts the world. If this light is the light of Christ, will not our good deeds be something greater in impact than the same deeds by an atheist or other non-Christian folk ? A light that some will be drawn to and desire. Some will hate it as it exposes their evil deeds. But others, as has happened throughout the world by the millions, will be drawn to that light and become disciples.

So, I'm curious as to how our faith in actions speak loud. Are these actions loud enough to see the unchurched have changed lives happening and if not, why not ?

Again, not to debate as I don't have the answers but in my own life I keep thinking that my light is being hid under a bushel and one area I struggle with is sharing Jesus like my father did. His good deeds and open conversation about Jesus went hand in hand to lead others to Christ.
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Josh
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Re: "Voluntary Christian Order" or "The Remnant"

Post by Josh »

Sudsy,

The Church of God in Christ, Mennonite is 10% non-Anabaptist background (and growing). The assertion conservative Anabaptists don’t evangelise isn’t a fair accusation.
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Sudsy
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Re: "Voluntary Christian Order" or "The Remnant"

Post by Sudsy »

Josh wrote:Sudsy,

The Church of God in Christ, Mennonite is 10% non-Anabaptist background (and growing). The assertion conservative Anabaptists don’t evangelise isn’t a fair accusation.
I don't think I said anywhere where CAs 'don't evangelise'. I do think there are differences within Anabaptism in what it means to evangelize. I question those who are doing what they believe to be evangelizing when it appears that the unchurched are not born again. I think most of us believe that an unchurched person who becomes a believer in Christ will quickly have an obvious change reflected in their quest to know God and desire to serve Him. So, in these endeavours we might call 'evangelism' are we seeing these changed lives coming out of the unchurched world into becoming Kingdom citizens ?

We have many in our church that are from non-Anabaptist backgrounds but many of these already are believers looking for a group that follows Christ closer to how they understand following. This is fine but how many are previous unchurched or previous churched but not reborn ?

From what you shared it sounds like your CA group is reaching the unchurched. I would love to hear some testimonies of those here and it might spur us all on to furthering God's Kingdom. What percent of your 10% of non-Anabaptists would you say are converts from no churched background or those who may have been churched but say they were not born again until they joined your group ?

Perhaps there are some here that could share their testimony on how they were evangelized by an Anabaptist and this lead them to receiving Jesus as their Lord and Saviour.

I keep thinking of the parable of the sower. Unless there was a substantial crop from all the seed sown, then what would be the point in sowing ? Or we could be sowing some kind of seed that just does not produce what is expected to be harvested.

This isn't to point fingers but rather to challenge what we are doing to further God's Kingdom and reap a harvest. Jesus said that there is a crop ripe waiting to be harvested but the labourers are few. Is this true today that a great harvest is sitting there waiting to be harvested ? Or do we lack the faith and initative to bring in the harvest ? Would love to hear yours and others thoughts on this.
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