Corporate Rule Of Life

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
Heirbyadoption
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Re: Corporate Rule Of Life

Post by Heirbyadoption »

Ernie wrote:You missed mine. :)
1. The NT Scriptures imply that groups of people will establish a corporate rule of life, so why not acknowledge this and try to align it with the heart of Jesus as much as possible!
So I did. :? I apologize. :hug: It does seem to me that moving forward primarily upon implication is risky, especially in light of the equal warnings/condemnations, but I see your point, certainly.
Ernie wrote:
Do we have Biblical authority to do so?
I think it depends on how one reads the Bible. Should the Bible be read like a title attorney would read a law book, or should it be read as a narrative that shows us what God's heart is on various matters?
I see Peter addressing things in his day like braiding gold thread into one's hair and I don't think the ladies back then who were doing this appreciated Peter any better than what ladies today would appreciate some male leader addressing the trimming or plucking of eye brows.
I think that the church today has the same privilege that Peter did.
Now that there could be a thread in itself. Good ole apostolic, Scripture-writing authority. :ugeek:
Ernie wrote:
... At what point our extraBiblical applications/legislations become Divine-command-violating-traditions such as Jesus warned about?
Whenever they are worded/taught in such a way as to give lip service to the letter of Jesus teaching, when the real intent of one's heart is to circumvent the heart of Jesus' teaching.
Thank you! You are correct, we all have some form of corporate agreement, though I also recognize there will probably never quite be full agreement here on MN regarding how much is Scripturally justifiable or even beneficial. But your response here really does seem to highlight the ultimate question, no matter how much command, implication, warning, or forbiddance one sees in Scripture for the scope of a corporate rule of life. Much appreciated.
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Hats Off
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Re: Corporate Rule Of Life

Post by Hats Off »

You cannot have a corporate body, a Christian church without some order. From Paul's writings it is very plain that we are to be a body of believers and that there needs to be some structure. Bishops and deacons were ordained in all the churches and Paul reminds us to obey them who have leadership offices. He writes "we command and exhort", "these things command and teach", "test all things - hold fast that which is good", "abstain from all appearance of evil." It is obvious that there needs to be some interpretation for the things of the day or even specific to geographical location. A new church plant or one focusing on reaching out to seekers will have different needs than the old established church districts.

To be effective, we must constantly evaluate our corporate rules of life so they remain relevant to today's situations, and to ensure that we don't follow the example of the Red Chair where we end up like the Pharisees, building fences around fences around fences.
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Josh
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Re: Corporate Rule Of Life

Post by Josh »

A new church plant or one focusing on reaching out to seekers will have different needs than the old established church districts.
I’m glad you recognise this. Likewise, the needs and boundaries around a new convert are a bit different than someone who has grown up in a Christian home and already knows the culture and guidelines well; essentially, what constitutes rebellion for those two types of people will be rather different.
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Ernie
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Re: Corporate Rule Of Life

Post by Ernie »

Heirbyadoption wrote:
Ernie wrote:
... At what point our extraBiblical applications/legislations become Divine-command-violating-traditions such as Jesus warned about?
Whenever they are worded/taught in such a way as to give lip service to the letter of Jesus teaching, when the real intent of one's heart is to circumvent the heart of Jesus' teaching.
Thank you! You are correct, we all have some form of corporate agreement, though I also recognize there will probably never quite be full agreement here on MN regarding how much is Scripturally justifiable or even beneficial. But your response here really does seem to highlight the ultimate question, no matter how much command, implication, warning, or forbiddance one sees in Scripture for the scope of a corporate rule of life. Much appreciated.
... At what point our extraBiblical applications/legislations become Divine-command-violating-traditions such as Jesus warned about?
One additional answer to this question as quoted from my article.
"When they place an unnecessary burden on those who are coming to God from other cultures and backgrounds."
Acts 15:28

I realize that some people might consider some aspects of our church's Corporate Rule of Life, "unnecessary". I am only ok with this because I view our church fellowship as a "Voluntary Order" within NT Christianity. I would not feel comfortable excommunicating someone who thought some parts of our order were an unnecessary burden. I would only excommunicate someone for sins clearly spoken against in the Bible.

For more thoughts about this, please visit this thread.
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The old woodcutter spoke again. “It is impossible to talk with you. You always draw conclusions. Life is so vast, yet you judge all of life with one page or one word. You see only a fragment. Unless you know the whole story, how can you judge?"
Hats Off
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Re: Corporate Rule Of Life

Post by Hats Off »

Josh wrote:
A new church plant or one focusing on reaching out to seekers will have different needs than the old established church districts.
I’m glad you recognise this. Likewise, the needs and boundaries around a new convert are a bit different than someone who has grown up in a Christian home and already knows the culture and guidelines well; essentially, what constitutes rebellion for those two types of people will be rather different.
This is an area where we don't do well. Somehow we are not able to distinguish between the two. We seem to fear that if we bent a rule to accommodate a newcomer, we would be opening the same door for everyone. We seem to be so used to the situation where someone who questions a rule is challenging a rule. We are so used to having our rules just accepted that we become defensive when someone questions, even though it is an honest question.
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joshuabgood
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Re: Corporate Rule Of Life

Post by joshuabgood »

Ernie - would you commune with people out of your "order?"

And how do you decide what is an "unnecessary burden?" Could you give some examples of each? Necessary and unnecessary?
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Ernie
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Re: Corporate Rule Of Life

Post by Ernie »

joshuabgood wrote:And how do you decide what is an "unnecessary burden?" Could you give some examples of each? Necessary and unnecessary?
How do I decide? I would submit a "burden" to this test, "Can a direct application be made from the New Testament?"

Examples of "burdens" I would be fine asking of new believers coming to God.
Non-resistance, simple living, sharing with the poor, hospitable, sanctity of marriage, modest dress, women covering their heads, alignment with Apostolic teaching.

Examples of "burdens" that may not be necessary to impose on Christians in all cultures but could be helpful in a particular culture.
Ladies wearing dresses or skirts. Men wearing pants.
Not baptizing teenagers until they are in their older teens.
Not communing with Christians from other faith traditions until they have worshipped with us for a number of months and we get to know them.
Requiring parents to educate their children in a Christian environment.
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The old woodcutter spoke again. “It is impossible to talk with you. You always draw conclusions. Life is so vast, yet you judge all of life with one page or one word. You see only a fragment. Unless you know the whole story, how can you judge?"
joshuabgood
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Re: Corporate Rule Of Life

Post by joshuabgood »

What about say "driving black cars" to protect Sunday from becoming an auto show? Is there any application based on an NT principle that you think would be too specific? Or so long as it is based on an NT principle it is ok?

For instance, is requiring a specific color, type and cut of veiling too specific? Is requiring people give all their money away except for a brotherhood specified housing allowance and other brotherhood specified budget categories? Are prohibitions against musical instruments ok?
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Hats Off
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Re: Corporate Rule Of Life

Post by Hats Off »

Unfortunately, just having a requirement that all vehicles be black doesn't stop the auto show. We also specify no unnecessary trimmings and sports accessories but we don't seem to know what that means. We have a standard veiling style; it seems when we back off at all they just become smaller. We prohibit musical instruments and all recorded music so we don't lose the ability to sing ourselves.
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Ernie
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Re: Corporate Rule Of Life

Post by Ernie »

joshuabgood wrote:What about say "driving black cars" to protect Sunday from becoming an auto show? Is there any application based on an NT principle that you think would be too specific? Or so long as it is based on an NT principle it is ok?

For instance, is requiring a specific color, type and cut of veiling too specific? Is requiring people give all their money away except for a brotherhood specified housing allowance and other brotherhood specified budget categories? Are prohibitions against musical instruments ok?
I'm fine with any of these things as long as they pass these sorts of tests.
1. Is membership at this church truly voluntary, (a voluntary "order" that is hard to get in and easy to get out) or would the holy kiss and/or communion be withheld from a person if they decided to leave this church and not practice these things?
2. Does this church offer a good alternative for "those who are coming to God" and would find some of these things an unnecessary burden? (I'm not talking about simply referring people to a church down the street.)
3. Do these rules in this church truly help to crucify the flesh with its affections and lusts, or do they tend to feed the flesh and make one proud?
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The old woodcutter spoke again. “It is impossible to talk with you. You always draw conclusions. Life is so vast, yet you judge all of life with one page or one word. You see only a fragment. Unless you know the whole story, how can you judge?"
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