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Ernie wrote:Here are some of my thoughts on this topic.

https://www.plainnews.org/wp-content/up ... f-Life.pdf

Thank you for sharing that. It certainly expresses many good benefits of having a corporate rule of life. But it doesn't really answer the questions which seem like they would be fundamental ones prior to expanding on those benefits. Would be glad for your perspective on them specifically.

Do we have Biblical authority to do so? ... At what point our extraBiblical applications/legislations become Divine-command-violating-traditions such as Jesus warned about?

Do we have Biblical authority to do so? ... At what point our extraBiblical applications/legislations become Divine-command-violating-traditions such as Jesus warned about?

Matthew 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

I'm guessing there isn't a single Christian church in the entire world that would say they follow "commandments of men". You couldn't justify it in the face of the scripture. Every church, fellowship, conference, denomination will use some scripture to legitimize their particular prohibitions.

Either none of us have ever crossed over into making commandments of men, or else some of us lack the discernment needed to understand what that means.

Of particular note is that many churches claim to be following just the New Testament, yet come to no consensus at all on what that is.

Josh wrote:Of particular note is that many churches claim to be following just the New Testament, yet come to no consensus at all on what that is.

And Psalm 127, don't forget Psalm 127.

Here are some Scripture verses that I wanted to include when I wrote the post below but didn't have time at the time.

[bible]James 4, 1[/bible]
[bible]Hebrews 13, 17[/bible]
[bible]Ephesians 4, 32[/bible]


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MaxPC wrote:

silentreader wrote:
The elephant is indeed alive and well. And I have no idea when legislation is no longer a form of beneficial guardianship for new believers and when it becomes a cloak for those who do not have a renewed/transformed mind.

Some experiences/thoughts of mine:
-Renewed/transformed minds take time. It's a process as the believer sheds the old habits and ways of thinking. It doesn't happen overnight.

-A Christian rule of life creates goals for maturation and renewal as well as a "greenhouse" to protect the new disciple from his own ice storms/troubles/emotions that Satan likes to use to discourage him or her.

-A rule of life protects the good order of a community of believers while at the same time fosters brotherhood and discipleship identity while encouraging that maturation in discipleship (transformed mind). When the rule of life is based on developing New Testament behaviors for discipleship, it can be a tremendous dynamic.

I've seen healthy communities with just such a rule in place. The leadership model was one that kept a balance: a single leader who is accountable to a council of peers.

Of course, there is no perfection this side of heaven but that doesn't mean we should stop striving.

silentreader wrote:

Josh wrote:Of particular note is that many churches claim to be following just the New Testament, yet come to no consensus at all on what that is.

And Psalm 127, don't forget Psalm 127.

Don't forget the 10 Commandments. Even those who only follow the New Testament, will likely include the 10 Commandments as well.

For clarity and to avoid derailing this thread further, I am moving this to a fresh post.

Heirbyadoption wrote:

Ernie wrote:Here are some of my thoughts on this topic.

https://www.plainnews.org/wp-content/up ... f-Life.pdf

Thank you for sharing that. It certainly expresses many good benefits of having a corporate rule of life. But it doesn't really answer the questions which seem like they would be fundamental ones prior to expanding on those benefits. Would be glad for your perspective on them specifically.

Do we have Biblical authority to do so? ... At what point our extraBiblical applications/legislations become Divine-command-violating-traditions such as Jesus warned about?

Perhaps these things are non-issues for some. From discussions with folks on here and throughout Anabaptist circles, they are a major question in the mind of many, especially in my generation; not to seek an escape so much as in recognition that we have inherited much of our faith in practice rather than having primarily developed it through personal conviction, coupled with the privilege of looking back on history and seeking where the car has left the rails at times (for a variety of reasons). In that recognition, I get the distinct impression (again from my generation especially , being the late 20s-early 40s) that we desire to establish a solid Scriptural foundation if we are going to commit to upholding various practices or corporate rules of life. As such, to the quote questions, there seem to be 4 realistic possibilities. Where there is overlap from your article, Ernie, I apologize. And if I have missed it, I also apologize, but I didn't see your article address these so much as promoting the benefits and practicality of having a corporate rule of life.

1. The Scriptures are silent on establishing a corporate rule of life, and we are at liberty to form them and request compliance to them within our congregations and of those that would seek to unite with us.
2. The Scriptures promote the benefits of the establishment of a corporate rule of life.
3. The Scriptures caution against the dangers of the establishment of a corporate rule of life.
4. The Scriptures are explicit against establishing a corporate rule of life, and we do not have the authority to form them nor to request compliance to them within our congregations and of those who would seek to join us.

For clarity and to avoid derailing this thread further, I am moving this to a fresh post.

Yesterday we had a sermon on the 'O come all ye faithful' carol in our short series on Christmas carols. The emphasis that the pastor put in this sermon was the worship and adoring of Christ the Lord. He got into the subject of what have been called 'worship wars' where changes in forms of worship have been a battle area in many Christian groups. And this has been an issue for some time as some of the hymns we love so much first got put to the tunes of worldly songs sung in bars. And then the whole instrumental thing is another issue that some consider 'worldly'.

Well, our MB church did go through quite an adjustment over the past 10 or so years adapting to the new modern worship bands and the way modern hymns are written. Pastor admitted some modern hymns are still hard for him to sing yet he believes worship can often be a sacrifice when we don't feel like worshipping or the style of music is not one we prefer. So, we 'suck it up' so to speak and learn how to worship in a way that speaks to the current culture if we are to reach them. Take the words in these songs (although often few and repetitive) and express them from your heart unto the Lord.

The Psalms were used to indicate how worship can be expressed involving instruments, shouting, clapping and even dancing. For many here this would be considered not New Covenant style worship and likely thought to be 'worldly'. Quite a change from probably most Anabaptist groups that post here. And still quite a change from older Mennonites that are leery of worship involving much emotion. Seems emotional displays themselves are considered 'worldly' or at least 'fleshly'.

The main point was that we should be able to adapt to praise and worship God in music and singing in a way that relates to our culture to reach them for Christ and for those younger to express themselves to God in their way.

This makes me wonder just how far we are willing to go to reach the lost in our culture. Seems to me Paul indicated he tried to 'fit in' where he could to see other's saved. And Jesus, our prime example, surprised and was criticized for mingling with those the religious group would have nothing to do with. They criticized Him and called Him a 'friend of sinners' and yet we read in the epistles were it sometimes appears to say to come out from among them and be separate.

So, at what point are we being 'worldly' ? Is it really 'worldly' to, for examples, form a line dance and sing to a country western hymn as worship or 'give the Lord an applause with clapping our hands' or 'shout Hallelujah in our worship times', etc or are we stretching some scriptures to support a certain tradition style in worship ? Do we view doing certain things in worship that is 'uncomfortable' for us as 'worldly'. I have had to come to grips with this myself as my preference is 4 part harmony with instrumentals, not that I thought some other forms were 'worldly'. Lately I have learned to join in with the modern style of worship and feel set free to express my worship to God. Not fully there yet but getting there.

Anyone wish to comment on their thoughts of 'worldly' ways to worship ?

We have this feeling (teaching) that the younger should submit to the older, not the other way around. And I am now 70, so submit!

Hats Off wrote:We have this feeling (teaching) that the younger should submit to the older, not the other way around. And I am now 70, so submit!

As long as you don't ask me to wear a hat