Worldliness

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
Hats Off
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Re: Worldliness

Post by Hats Off »

Sudsy wrote:
Hats Off wrote:
Heirbyadoption wrote: I would suggest its even worse, partly due its inherent dishonesty, and partly due to its effects.
Our heart must be in conforming to our church standards and then they can be a benefit to those who are in the early stages of learning who may not yet have a conscience against worldliness. I would not want a church without standards even though some may conform only out of obedience. Hopefully that obedience will lead to transformation.
I believe when we are transformed in Christ in the renewing of our minds, we love to do what you ought to do, that’s freedom. To obey out of duty hoping to lead to transformation, seems to me to be trusting in laws to bring about a transformed mind. I remember when some of the 'church standards' were relaxed in my youth on certain areas and some immediately took advantage of this 'new freedom' as it was in areas they had felt restricted and did not love to do. Later on, for some believers, this was a spiritual growth experience as they found some of this new freedom was not helping but hindering their relationship with God and these then became things they could easily give up. For others who became more worldly, it was probably considered by others that they had headed down a 'slippery slope' but perhaps this was a lack of God transformation in their minds in the first place.
But to obey out of obedience is not necessarily out of duty. Obeying out of a willingness to learn can and will help with a transformation process.
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silentreader
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Re: Worldliness

Post by silentreader »

Hats Off wrote:
Heirbyadoption wrote:
ohio jones wrote:Without a transformed mind, conforming to church standards isn't much better than (or even much different from) conforming to the world.
I would suggest its even worse, partly due its inherent dishonesty, and partly due to its effects.
Our heart must be in conforming to our church standards and then they can be a benefit to those who are in the early stages of learning who may not yet have a conscience against worldliness. I would not want a church without standards even though some may conform only out of obedience. Hopefully that obedience will lead to transformation.
It seems to me in many cases we are going back to something similar to what Paul was talking about in Galatians,
Galatians 3:19-29English Standard Version (ESV)
19 Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made, and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary. 20 Now an intermediary implies more than one, but God is one.
21 Is the law then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law. 22 But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
23 Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. 24 So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, 26 for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave[a] nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise.
standards are established as a "guardian" until we "grow up" spiritually. Unfortunately, if the focus is on obedience to standards at the expense of spiritual growth, then we will remain under a guardian. And it is not necessarily that the standards can be discarded when we "grow up" spiritually, but rather that we obey the spirit of the standards, (law) because we want to, rather than being coerced into obedience by the letter of the standards (law).
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silentreader
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Re: Worldliness

Post by silentreader »

I've said this before, but I, at least, think it bears repeating.

You can legislate uniformity, but you cannot legislate unity, unity is a work of the Spirit.

In like manner, you can legislate an outward appearance of separation from the world, but an actual separation to God is a work of the Spirit.
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Heirbyadoption
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Re: Worldliness

Post by Heirbyadoption »

The elephant remains standing in the corner, of course, unless somebody already shot him and I missed it.
You can legislate uniformity
Can, yes. Do we have Biblical authority to do so? If you're (anybody) part of a fellowship that creates and enforces uniformity in certain areas, I'm just curious, has your group ever actually specifically discussed at what point our extraBiblical applications/legislations become Divine-command-violating-traditions such as Jesus warned about? More importantly, (from the few if any who's group has done so), what was the conclusion? I ask as our group is headed toward such a discussion at some point due to the diversity among us.
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Hats Off
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Re: Worldliness

Post by Hats Off »

I would envy the ability to do that. We are not in a position to have that discussion other than informally during Sunday afternoon visits with like minded friends. It is always too easy to say that we are punishing someone for an act of wilful disobedience, rather than to say they are punished for disobeying the actual law.

I would also fear having that discussion; all we have to do is read Sudsy's posts. For those of us who prefer some kind of standards to which we all subscribe, that discussion can become the elephant itself. Where do we start or stop without are standards becoming vain traditions?
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silentreader
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Re: Worldliness

Post by silentreader »

Heirbyadoption wrote:The elephant remains standing in the corner, of course, unless somebody already shot him and I missed it.
You can legislate uniformity
Can, yes. Do we have Biblical authority to do so? If you're (anybody) part of a fellowship that creates and enforces uniformity in certain areas, I'm just curious, has your group ever actually specifically discussed at what point our extraBiblical applications/legislations become Divine-command-violating-traditions such as Jesus warned about? More importantly, (from the few if any who's group has done so), what was the conclusion? I ask as our group is headed toward such a discussion at some point due to the diversity among us.
The elephant is indeed alive and well. And I have no idea when legislation is no longer a form of beneficial guardianship for new believers and when it becomes a cloak for those who do not have a renewed/transformed mind.
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Ernie
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Re: Worldliness

Post by Ernie »

Here are some of my thoughts on this topic.

https://www.plainnews.org/wp-content/up ... f-Life.pdf
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Sudsy
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Re: Worldliness

Post by Sudsy »

Ernie wrote:Here are some of my thoughts on this topic.

https://www.plainnews.org/wp-content/up ... f-Life.pdf
Thanks Ernie for sharing this. Question regarding this verse you referred to -

Acts 4:32 Now the full number of those who believed were of one heart and soul, and no one said that any of the things
that belonged to him was his own, but they had everything in common.

Do you think this came about by this early group of believers sitting down and mapping out a rule-of-life for their group or was this something that manifested itself in the way expressed here as the Holy Spirit changed their hearts to be of 'one heart and soul' ?

I do agree we live with certain disciplines in our lives in many areas but corporately God has grafted us all into one family and it seems to me Paul was not supporting any unique corporate ways when he said we all our of Christ and it seems to me Paul was saying that it is human thinking to develop a unique rule-of-life different from others in God's family.

Can you help me understand where my thinking is wrong here in your view ?
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MaxPC
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Re: Worldliness

Post by MaxPC »

silentreader wrote:
The elephant is indeed alive and well. And I have no idea when legislation is no longer a form of beneficial guardianship for new believers and when it becomes a cloak for those who do not have a renewed/transformed mind.
Some experiences/thoughts of mine:
-Renewed/transformed minds take time. It's a process as the believer sheds the old habits and ways of thinking. It doesn't happen overnight.

-A Christian rule of life creates goals for maturation and renewal as well as a "greenhouse" to protect the new disciple from his own ice storms/troubles/emotions that Satan likes to use to discourage him or her.

-A rule of life protects the good order of a community of believers while at the same time fosters brotherhood and discipleship identity while encouraging that maturation in discipleship (transformed mind). When the rule of life is based on developing New Testament behaviors for discipleship, it can be a tremendous dynamic.

I've seen healthy communities with just such a rule in place. The leadership model was one that kept a balance: a single leader who is accountable to a council of peers.

Of course, there is no perfection this side of heaven but that doesn't mean we should stop striving. :D
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Max (Plain Catholic)
Mt 24:35
Proverbs 18:2 A fool does not delight in understanding but only in revealing his own mind.
1 Corinthians 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is folly with God
Hats Off
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Re: Worldliness

Post by Hats Off »

Sudsy wrote:
Ernie wrote:Here are some of my thoughts on this topic.

https://www.plainnews.org/wp-content/up ... f-Life.pdf
Thanks Ernie for sharing this. Question regarding this verse you referred to -

Acts 4:32 Now the full number of those who believed were of one heart and soul, and no one said that any of the things
that belonged to him was his own, but they had everything in common.

Do you think this came about by this early group of believers sitting down and mapping out a rule-of-life for their group or was this something that manifested itself in the way expressed here as the Holy Spirit changed their hearts to be of 'one heart and soul' ?

I do agree we live with certain disciplines in our lives in many areas but corporately God has grafted us all into one family and it seems to me Paul was not supporting any unique corporate ways when he said we all our of Christ and it seems to me Paul was saying that it is human thinking to develop a unique rule-of-life different from others in God's family.

Can you help me understand where my thinking is wrong here in your view ?
I won't say that you are wrong in your view - but I do say that I would be uncomfortable sharing your view; I prefer some standards and so I can share one true faith but I won't likely come to your MB church or another one like it.
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