Worldliness

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
CADude
Posts: 65
Joined: Tue Oct 31, 2017 4:43 pm
Location: Southeast PA
Affiliation: Consrvt. Anabaptist

Worldliness

Post by CADude »

I had a conversation recently with a few friends where we tried to get a more fundamental understanding of what "worldliness" is and I thought this might be an interesting topic to discuss here. I'm assuming this term is used quite a bit among conservative Christians, and especially conservative Anabaptists.

Is worldliness a sin in and of itself? If yes, upon what basis? Here's a few of the scriptures that I think are commonly used when we talk about worldliness:
1 John 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

James 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
In more conservative churches, I think "worldliness" is often defined for the parishioners, at least the practical application aspect. For example, there may be admonitions or prohibitions on certain clothes or dress styles, hair styles, men wearing shorts, luxury vehicles, attending certain entertainment events, etc. But are these things actually what these scriptures are talking about or is there something more to it? Is a churches standard (rules) effective at preventing worldliness?

Dietrich Bonhoeffer (he wasn't Anabaptist) said something interesting:
"Will they ever learn that majority decision in matters of conscience kills the Spirit?"
I find his question interesting because sometimes I think that when a church goes about defining what worldliness is for it's members, the members might grow somewhat spiritually weak and fail to recognize other ways (that haven't been defined) in which they are becoming like the world.

If a church does seem to be drifting towards the world, what's actually wrong? Is it because of a failure to have a correct standard or some failure to enforce the standard?
0 x
User avatar
Bootstrap
Posts: 14445
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2016 9:59 am
Affiliation: Mennonite

Re: Worldliness

Post by Bootstrap »

I think this quote is relevant:
Hebrews 5:14 wrote:But solid food is for the mature, for those who have their powers of discernment trained by constant practice to distinguish good from evil.
In a given church body, how do members get this constant practice in discerning good from evil? Or discerning wise from unwise? Or discerning helpful from unhelpful?

In my life, these are questions I discuss with people in my small group and with my wife because it's not always obvious or clear-cut. If I'm working with refugees, what kinds of help are enabling, and what kinds build dependency? When Christians discuss political issues, can kinds of discussion be good and others evil? If so, how can I tell?

I think we need constant practice, together, asking these questions with the guidance of the Holy Spirit. And above all, we should be asking him to show us the right path for our own lives, how we can best serve others.
0 x
Is it biblical? Is it Christlike? Is it loving? Is it true? How can I find out?
MaxPC
Posts: 9044
Joined: Sat Oct 22, 2016 9:09 pm
Location: Former full time RVers
Affiliation: PlainRomanCatholic
Contact:

Re: Worldliness

Post by MaxPC »

CADude wrote:I had a conversation recently with a few friends where we tried to get a more fundamental understanding of what "worldliness" is and I thought this might be an interesting topic to discuss here. I'm assuming this term is used quite a bit among conservative Christians, and especially conservative Anabaptists.

Is worldliness a sin in and of itself? If yes, upon what basis? Here's a few of the scriptures that I think are commonly used when we talk about worldliness:
1 John 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

James 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
In more conservative churches, I think "worldliness" is often defined for the parishioners, at least the practical application aspect. For example, there may be admonitions or prohibitions on certain clothes or dress styles, hair styles, men wearing shorts, luxury vehicles, attending certain entertainment events, etc. But are these things actually what these scriptures are talking about or is there something more to it? Is a churches standard (rules) effective at preventing worldliness?

Dietrich Bonhoeffer (he wasn't Anabaptist) said something interesting:
"Will they ever learn that majority decision in matters of conscience kills the Spirit?"
I find his question interesting because sometimes I think that when a church goes about defining what worldliness is for it's members, the members might grow somewhat spiritually weak and fail to recognize other ways (that haven't been defined) in which they are becoming like the world.

If a church does seem to be drifting towards the world, what's actually wrong? Is it because of a failure to have a correct standard or some failure to enforce the standard?
Great topic! Some random thoughts that come to my mind:
-Numerous Scripture verses that tell us to separate ourselves from the world and its secular value systems.
-Worldly values emphasize anything EXCEPT God who we are to live and serve ("a man cannot serve 2 masters" verses).
-A church that loses its focus on God will die out on its own unless there is a concerted revival of God-focused teaching.
0 x
Max (Plain Catholic)
Mt 24:35
Proverbs 18:2 A fool does not delight in understanding but only in revealing his own mind.
1 Corinthians 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is folly with God
User avatar
ohio jones
Posts: 5222
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2016 11:23 pm
Location: undisclosed
Affiliation: Rosedale Network

Re: Worldliness

Post by ohio jones »

Without a transformed mind, conforming to church standards isn't much better than (or even much different from) conforming to the world.
0 x
I grew up around Indiana, You grew up around Galilee; And if I ever really do grow up, I wanna grow up to be just like You -- Rich Mullins

I am a Christian and my name is Pilgram; I'm on a journey, but I'm not alone -- NewSong, slightly edited
Heirbyadoption
Posts: 1012
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2016 1:57 pm
Affiliation: Brethren

Re: Worldliness

Post by Heirbyadoption »

ohio jones wrote:Without a transformed mind, conforming to church standards isn't much better than (or even much different from) conforming to the world.
I would suggest its even worse, partly due its inherent dishonesty, and partly due to its effects.
0 x
Sudsy
Posts: 5859
Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2017 3:32 pm
Affiliation: .

Re: Worldliness

Post by Sudsy »

CADude wrote:I had a conversation recently with a few friends where we tried to get a more fundamental understanding of what "worldliness" is and I thought this might be an interesting topic to discuss here. I'm assuming this term is used quite a bit among conservative Christians, and especially conservative Anabaptists.

Is worldliness a sin in and of itself? If yes, upon what basis? Here's a few of the scriptures that I think are commonly used when we talk about worldliness:
1 John 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

James 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
In more conservative churches, I think "worldliness" is often defined for the parishioners, at least the practical application aspect. For example, there may be admonitions or prohibitions on certain clothes or dress styles, hair styles, men wearing shorts, luxury vehicles, attending certain entertainment events, etc. But are these things actually what these scriptures are talking about or is there something more to it? Is a churches standard (rules) effective at preventing worldliness?

Dietrich Bonhoeffer (he wasn't Anabaptist) said something interesting:
"Will they ever learn that majority decision in matters of conscience kills the Spirit?"
I find his question interesting because sometimes I think that when a church goes about defining what worldliness is for it's members, the members might grow somewhat spiritually weak and fail to recognize other ways (that haven't been defined) in which they are becoming like the world.

If a church does seem to be drifting towards the world, what's actually wrong? Is it because of a failure to have a correct standard or some failure to enforce the standard?
A couple thoughts -

I'm not one who is in favour of church standards mainly because I think it is too easy to only take one's guidance of Christian practise on what the local church defines and does not promote a personal relationship with God the Holy Spirit for personal convictions and direction. I know this approach is thought by some to be worldly in the sense that it is too individualistic minded but I believe our walk with God is one of individual growth in relationship with Him and other believers. Others believe in following the expected and someday you will grow to understand the whys.

On the one hand the personal conviction approach is thought to be the cause of too worldly practising Christians. On the other hand the rules approach (which I grew up in), in my experience, resulted in religious acting folks with no real relationship with God the Holy Spirit. Not all but too many as some of my friends and family are now among the unchurched. Obviously, I now am more at home in an Anabaptist modern church that the more conservative traditional Anabaptists would see as too worldly.

But regarding what is 'being worldly' I do think it is much more about worldly mindsets and values than it is outward apparel and other non-conforming practises. Do I love God and pursue knowing and serving Him more than anything else I am doing ? Is God in my thoughts as I go about life here in all of it's activities. Do I know the guidance of the Holy Spirit during the bulk of my day when I'm not around other believers ? How important are the things the world sees as important, important to me ? When I ask myself questions like these I feel convicted and then the choice is mine to repent. So, to an extent I am trying to serve two masters which scripture says I can't do. And this is where I think many of us live, whether conservative or liberal in practise and imo, why our eternal life that has begun is so far from being spiritually abundant in peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.

Although I'm a sheep prone to wander, what my experience teaches me is that the closer I live in personal relationship with God these other things we call 'worldly' just become less and less attractive. I'm reminded of the hymn - turn your eyes upon Jesus and the things of earth grow strangely dim. My drawings to worldliness are directly related to my let down of walking in the Spirit, having a personal walk with God. Live close to the Lord and we will know what is worldly as the Lord transforms our ways of thinking. And don't get over concerned with where others are in this walk other than to be encouraging and pray for them trusting that the work God has begun in them He will complete.
0 x
Pursuing a Kingdom life in the Spirit
haithabu
Posts: 361
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2016 6:11 pm
Location: Calgary
Affiliation: Missionary Church

Re: Worldliness

Post by haithabu »

I think of worldliness as the state of society in which its collective values and workings are governed by the effect of the flesh at work in its individual members - ie, when they are governed by their individual needs and desires as described in I John 2:15,16.
Do not love the world nor the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the boastful pride of life, is not from the Father, but is from the world.
When we walk according to the flesh, we naturally tend toward worldliness and so we are drawn toward worldly entertainment and practices, because they serve the flesh. When people chase after power, money or status in any form, that is another form of worldliness, because the flesh also wants those things. And how much is society shaped by these pursuits - even among Christians! When church leaders engage in political machinations to bring through certain agendas, that also is a form of worldliness and the world has entered the church.
For since there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not fleshly, and are you not walking like mere men? For when one says, “I am of Paul,” and another, “I am of Apollos,” are you not mere men? I Corinthians 3:3,4
The collective effect of people walking by the flesh as described in Galatians 5:16-25 and James 3:14-16 is a poisoned social order. But to the extent that believers walk by the Spirit, society is preserved. I believe it is in this way that we are called to be salt in the earth.
0 x
RZehr
Posts: 7028
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2016 12:42 am
Affiliation: Cons. Mennonite

Re: Worldliness

Post by RZehr »

If someone looks like the world, walks like the world, and talks like the world, I'm going to think they are worldly.
0 x
User avatar
Josh
Posts: 23826
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2016 6:23 pm
Location: 1000' ASL
Affiliation: The church of God

Re: Worldliness

Post by Josh »

RZehr wrote:If someone looks like the world, walks like the world, and talks like the world, I'm going to think they are worldly.
Of course, this puts us seekers in a general state of anxiety to try to dress to be accepted by our non-worldly peers, try to learn to talk differently, and overall we get very busy pretending we aren’t “worldly”.
0 x
silentreader
Posts: 2511
Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2016 9:41 pm
Affiliation: MidWest Fellowship

Re: Worldliness

Post by silentreader »

Josh wrote:
RZehr wrote:If someone looks like the world, walks like the world, and talks like the world, I'm going to think they are worldly.
Of course, this puts us seekers in a general state of anxiety to try to dress to be accepted by our non-worldly peers, try to learn to talk differently, and overall we get very busy pretending we aren’t “worldly”.
But do you have a "renewed, transformed mind"? That is really the only legitimate starting point for overcoming "worldliness".
0 x
Noah was a conspiracy theorist...and then it began to rain.~Unknown
Post Reply