"One True Church and related topics."

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
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Josh
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"One True Church and related topics."

Post by Josh »

Anyone who believes that their church is the true church is not invited unless they are seriously open to questioning that belief.
It looks like this event specifically excludes Holdemans. Is there any way to get an exception so I can attend?

For example, we could be asked to refrain from pushing or talking about that belief. In exchange, other attendees could be asked to refrain from arguing/trying to convince Holdemans to abandon this belief.


edit by jm
this thread is split from the Seeker's Gathering thread, per request of ernie
http://forum.mennonet.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=551
Last edited by justme on Wed Dec 06, 2017 7:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: add edit info to first posting in this thread
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Ernie
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Re: Seekers Gathering 2018?

Post by Ernie »

Josh wrote:
Anyone who believes that their church is the true church is not invited unless they are seriously open to questioning that belief.
It looks like this event specifically excludes Holdemans. Is there any way to get an exception so I can attend?

For example, we could be asked to refrain from pushing or talking about that belief. In exchange, other attendees could be asked to refrain from arguing/trying to convince Holdemans to abandon this belief.
I'd really like to have you there. I don't think you would try to convince my friends to join your church. I also know its not your fault that your church took this position about itself and you might not have this belief if they had not generated it.
Yet its hard to have much camaraderie and Christian fellowship with folks who have this belief because at the end of the day, I'm still in the wrong church no matter what good fellowship we enjoyed during the day. If my friends became friends with you, they would feel the same thing at whatever point in the future they learned what your beliefs are.
The purpose of events like this is to help destroy walls like this that various groups of plain people have created the last few hundred years. I'm not interested in making provision for these two belief systems to co-exist at an event like this. I feel strongly about this because this kind of sectarianism in the Body of Christ is what I think Jesus came to destroy. (There may be events where the two beliefs could easily co-exist.)
There have been many groups with this belief over the centuries who have either died out or eventually given up this belief. So if there is anyone from your group or a representation from your group who is seriously open to revisiting this belief then they would be welcome. From what I understand, you used to receive instruction from a church like the rest of us that did not have this belief, and now you are receiving input from a church that does have this belief. I can get along just fine with you as a person and I don't hold anything against you for taking this step. Everyone has the freedom to pursue whatever doctrine or church they wish. But as people of integrity, we need to live honestly with our choices and realize how those choices will affect our friendships.
I don't go to the same church that I used to and that has cost me certain "fellowship privileges". I accept those consequences.
I've interacted with Church of Christ people in the past who have had this belief. We had good times together and enjoyed a certain level of friendship. But outside of this friendship, I was his church's "mission field". I don't want my friends who come to this event to learn later in life that these nice people they visited with at SG would gladly help them join a Holdeman church.
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Josh
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Re: Seekers Gathering 2018?

Post by Josh »

I will make a longer post when I have the time, but in brief, I really understand your reticence if you have had the Church of Christ “experience”. I got the CoC experience full blast at KFW 2015 & 2016 and AIC 2017, complete with doubting my salvation for a few hours or days before snapping back to reality. (I deeply appreciate that didn’t happen again at KFW 2017.)

With that said, that clause hasn’t accomplished much except to raise certain sectarian walls rather high. In my experience, Holdemans do not proselytise at gatherings of plain people and in fact prefer to remain in the shadows - such as they did at AIC 2017. None of them even raised their hand when Chester Weaver asked if any were present (until after I raised my hand), and none of those attendees were very talkative at all with me until I let them know where I go to church. I very much doubt anyone else from my setting would even be interested in going to SG.
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Ernie
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Re: Seekers Gathering 2018?

Post by Ernie »

So there may be some variation within your church. Some may not hold the one true church belief as strongly as the folks who originally proposed this belief as well as some folks currently who live in other places. My experience has been that they gladly held meetings in new plain areas and tried to recruit members away from other plain churches. Near to where I live now, they do something similar. In this area it is a very well known fact that they would gladly help me leave my church to join their church. The reason being that they believe there is no true communion apart from communion in the Holdeman church. This belief is no different from Catholic or CoC.

If you do not hold to the above beliefs, or are willing to question these beliefs, you can explain.

The seekers gathering is not a MennoMeet. It is a place for non-one-true-church plain people to gather to encourage each other and provide some perspective for those who are considering whether to be part of non-one-true-church plain churches. I'm not interested in starting yet another event that is either embarrassing to the name of Christ or confusing to seekers. (Of course I am determining what is embarrassing or confusing in this case due to my understanding of the New Testament.) You may not see this the same way as I do and are welcome to host an event like KFW or AIC that would try to accommodate one-true-church and non-one-true-church at the same place.

Just for the record, I do like you as a person. I just don't want my friends with little understanding of Christianity to come to realize that some people who seem to have the same values as me, are not in the right church.
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The old woodcutter spoke again. “It is impossible to talk with you. You always draw conclusions. Life is so vast, yet you judge all of life with one page or one word. You see only a fragment. Unless you know the whole story, how can you judge?"
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mike
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Re: Seekers Gathering 2018?

Post by mike »

Josh wrote:
Ernie wrote:The seekers gathering is not a MennoMeet. It is a place for non-one-true-church plain people to gather to encourage each other and provide some perspective for those who are considering whether to be part of non-one-true-church plain churches. I'm not interested in starting yet another event that is either embarrassing to the name of Christ or confusing to seekers. (Of course I am determining what is embarrassing or confusing in this case due to my understanding of the New Testament.)
Perhaps it would be helpful to break down which affiliations are welcome and which aren't. Based on my understanding so far, the affiliations I have been a part of (fundamental-cons. wing of Midwest, fundamental-cons. wing of independent Beachys, the non-plain wing of the CMC, and Holdeman) are all not the kind of affiliations you are interested in promoting at your Seekers' Gathering.

I do not have any quarrel with that at all - but what would make sense, is to learn what kind of affiliations you would be comfortable having promoted at such an event.
I don't think it is persons with particular affiliations that are persona non grata, but the belief that one is of the one true church is a problem. If that is what you truly believe, you probably don't want to come to a gathering like this anyway, except as an evangelist for your denomination. Which Ernie is trying to avoid.
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Once Again
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Re: Seekers Gathering 2018?

Post by Once Again »

Josh wrote:I will make a longer post when I have the time, but in brief, I really understand your reticence if you have had the Church of Christ “experience”. I got the CoC experience full blast at KFW 2015 & 2016 and AIC 2017, complete with doubting my salvation for a few hours or days before snapping back to reality. (I deeply appreciate that didn’t happen again at KFW 2017.)

With that said, that clause hasn’t accomplished much except to raise certain sectarian walls rather high. In my experience, Holdemans do not proselytise at gatherings of plain people and in fact prefer to remain in the shadows - such as they did at AIC 2017. None of them even raised their hand when Chester Weaver asked if any were present (until after I raised my hand), and none of those attendees were very talkative at all with me until I let them know where I go to church. I very much doubt anyone else from my setting would even be interested in going to SG.
There were that many members of the COC at KFW and AIC?
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Judas Maccabeus
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Re: Seekers Gathering 2018?

Post by Judas Maccabeus »

Once Again wrote:
Josh wrote:I will make a longer post when I have the time, but in brief, I really understand your reticence if you have had the Church of Christ “experience”. I got the CoC experience full blast at KFW 2015 & 2016 and AIC 2017, complete with doubting my salvation for a few hours or days before snapping back to reality. (I deeply appreciate that didn’t happen again at KFW 2017.)

With that said, that clause hasn’t accomplished much except to raise certain sectarian walls rather high. In my experience, Holdemans do not proselytise at gatherings of plain people and in fact prefer to remain in the shadows - such as they did at AIC 2017. None of them even raised their hand when Chester Weaver asked if any were present (until after I raised my hand), and none of those attendees were very talkative at all with me until I let them know where I go to church. I very much doubt anyone else from my setting would even be interested in going to SG.
There were that many members of the COC at KFW and AIC?
I did run into some ICOC people at KFW 2015. To a number they were from Boston, where is where ICOC seems to have originated.

I wonder if and if so how much connection there is between ICOC and some Anabaptist groups up there?

J.M.
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KingdomBuilder
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Re: Seekers Gathering 2018?

Post by KingdomBuilder »

ICOC and COC are very different... Josh, was you experience more CoC of ICoC?
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Josh
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Re: Seekers Gathering 2018?

Post by Josh »

KingdomBuilder wrote:ICOC and COC are very different... Josh, was you experience more CoC of ICoC?
AIC 2017 was CoC background people

KFW 16 and 17 were Boston people. I’m guessing that’s more ICoC background people.

I suppose I should be glad they are allowed to come and try to get everyone else to question their salvation; that way I am allowed to come too and privately hold to my beliefs about my church which I keep to myself, don’t push on anybody, and try to be meek when questioned about them.
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mike
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Re: Seekers Gathering 2018?

Post by mike »

Josh wrote:
KingdomBuilder wrote:ICOC and COC are very different... Josh, was you experience more CoC of ICoC?
AIC 2017 was CoC background people

KFW 16 and 17 were Boston people. I’m guessing that’s more ICoC background people.

I suppose I should be glad they are allowed to come and try to get everyone else to question their salvation; that way I am allowed to come too and privately hold to my beliefs about my church which I keep to myself, don’t push on anybody, and try to be meek when questioned about them.
I don't know many folks from your church, but the ones I do run into seem very meek in general, and don't offer to talk about their beliefs about church. But the elephant in the room is that everybody knows their official belief is that they are the only true church, and the rest of us do not have valid baptism, communion, etc.

The point isn't that they aren't meek or that they push their beliefs on others. The point is they have a doctrine about church that is fallacious.
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Remember the prisoners, as though you were in prison with them, and the mistreated, as though you yourselves were suffering bodily. -Heb. 13:3
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