"One True Church and related topics."

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
Wade
Posts: 2683
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2016 12:09 am
Affiliation: kingdom Christian

Re: "One True Church and related topics."

Post by Wade »

Josh wrote:
Wade wrote:
Hats Off wrote:At the time of the Amman/Reist disagreement, one of the sticking points was at how the Reist party looked at "friends." In those days there were many people who sympathized with and supported the Anabaptists but were not ready to "forsake all" and join them. They were known by the Reist people as the "True Hearted" and were truly friends. The Amman group considered them "lost" while the Reist group didn't.
I am also curious what "forsake all" means to Mennonites? Because of the "time of proving" this, from my experience does not (didn't) work for us today. So those who do forsake all are just left with nothing. And yet they have set there hand to the plow and aren't looking back because we are not looking for the praise of men, yet still alone... I guess why should us newcomers expect to be treated any different from our Lord in not being accepted by the religious community of the day?
Wade,

Please consider that most churches not like the one that refused to accept you. Please stop acting like all Mennonites will act the way you were treated.

In particular, Holdemans are pretty welcoming and accepting and don’t have really long proving times, and are quite upfront and open about what the process is.
Thanks Josh.
I don't intend to act like all Mennonites are a certain way. But I think it is fair for both sides to understand what is really meant by "forsaking all.". Why should we pack up and leave everything behind again unless we can be sure wthout some hard questions and conservations about it. It is easy to talk about forsaking all but until you have literally done that, I don't believe one can understand what that means?

The closest Mennonites that we have come to know since being away from that church have come in contact with the exact people that threatened us from the last one and then share conversations about with each other about us.
Then these new ones share untrue stories from the past church... We were told many times members are always believed over non-members! So we say nothing and my wife sinks further in wanting to avoid Mennonites.

But who really cares? My wife is hurrying to the hospital right now with our sick baby who is struggling to breath in our only vehicle that has a clunking noise in the front end. Learning continual to trust no one except God for help. :wave:
0 x
Hats Off
Posts: 2532
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2017 6:42 pm
Affiliation: Plain Menno OO

Re: "One True Church and related topics."

Post by Hats Off »

When I said "forsaking all", I was referring to Jesus' words "So likewise, whoever he be of you that forsakes not all that he has, he cannot be my disciple." If we read through the NT, we can see that he did not mean that we should give away everything which we have. Rather, we should not think of those things which we have as our own, but things we have to be of help to others and to further Jesus' kingdom.

When Patrick and Brian and Chris and Tom and Philip and their families spent time with us, they were not proving to us that they were ready for membership. They were learning who we are and whether they could fit in with us. We want you to know us so well that there won't be too many surprises later if you decide to join. We have seen situations where husband and wife came and joined. In time the husband left again but the wife and children continue to be members. The children are now marrying MB children.
0 x
Hats Off
Posts: 2532
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2017 6:42 pm
Affiliation: Plain Menno OO

Re: "One True Church and related topics."

Post by Hats Off »

Wade wrote:
Josh wrote:
Wade wrote:
We were told many times members are always believed over non-members! So we say nothing and my wife sinks further in wanting to avoid Mennonites.

But who really cares? My wife is hurrying to the hospital right now with our sick baby who is struggling to breath in our only vehicle that has a clunking noise in the front end. Learning continual to trust no one except God for help. :wave:
Trust us Wade, we do care!
0 x
Heirbyadoption
Posts: 1012
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2016 1:57 pm
Affiliation: Brethren

Re: "One True Church and related topics."

Post by Heirbyadoption »

KingdomBuilder wrote:
Hats Off wrote:I would extend the "right hand of fellowship" and the kiss of peace to RZehr and Ernie, for example, while I don't to my Bible Chapel Brethern friends. I consider them as fellow believers but I disagree with their eternal security and dispensational doctrines, and what all goes with that. I recognize them as sincere, devoted Christians; I love them as brothers
Is this not enough then to extend the "right hand of fellowship"? Is it our job to draw the boundaries for Biblical commandments based on likeness in doctrinal conclusions?
I don't feel any guilt in my conscious from extending fellowship to LDS, JW's, Pentecostals, Baptists, etc., though I surely don''t share some of their beliefs. But I'd fear how the Lord would look upon any divisiveness I seek to form between us.
The Lord will separate the sheep from the goats, and that's not a job I desire to attempt. Until he does, my instructions are pretty clear.
I truly appreciate and share your concern against not defining the boundaries of brotherhood by denomination/conference. However, if I may express a wee spot I might differ, since you mentioned LDS and JWs, both teach (in my personal experience and studies) things that put them grossly outside the bounds of Biblical Christian fellowship. Unless of course, you believe the LDS platform that Heavenly Father and his spirit wife (who were both once human, and from the hypothetical planet Kolob if some of their writings are to be believed) had sex in the spirit world until they had conceived enough spirit children to populate this world, including the spirit brothers Jesus and Satan. We spirit babies are now born here and as we attain to certain levels within the LDS church structure, we can eventually become gods with spirit wives and eventually get our own planets, etc, etc. And yes, these things are all documentable, and they only scratches the surface. JDs have their own set of antiBiblical issues that should automatically preclude them from Biblical fellowship as well, especially from an anabaptist perspective.

My point is simply that in spite of our desire to rectify the extra-Biblical limiting of brotherhood to which we are prone, we still need to exercise Biblical discernment in our efforts.
0 x
Wade
Posts: 2683
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2016 12:09 am
Affiliation: kingdom Christian

Re: "One True Church and related topics."

Post by Wade »

Hats Off wrote:Trust us Wade, we do care!
Thanks Hats Off, I realized later after I reread my post how awful that came across... Sorry.

I want to try to make something clear that may not seem this way in how I post at times. And that is that I am actually very pro-Mennonite(if that is even accurate or makes sense...) Mennonite churches are the ONLY churches or rather people that I have ever felt a common bond of Spirit with in Christ. Maybe that sounds rude to others and I don't want to cast others outside the "true church" or feel like they need my approval :? . And nor am I stating that the Mennonite church is the "true church" then and to those outside I probably would have a bond with lots of you if I ever met you. However it is true that at a Mennonite service I experience a reverence, devotion, and closeness to God with brothers and sisters in Christ like nothing else. I feel at home more than I have ever felt at home with my biology family/the home I was raised in. I love my parents and sister and mean no disrespect in this.
I won't bother sharing but I have had enough times of tears and words from Mennonites conversing with me of why I believe that this hasn't been one sided
For the unchurched newcomer all these denominational lines and what seem like approval games tear apart and distract from that oneness in Christ that really has to do with more than "feeling." It's like my mind having to reason against what is happening in my Spirit because it has to fit with labels, membership, etc. It is tiring and I deeply miss many Mennonites, like a child estranged from his family.


On another note, as far as some of the other things put forth on here, this is what Matthew Milioni said yesterday about a lot of things being talked about on MN with a sermon on "Who is my brother?" http://www.followers-of-the-way.org/med ... nvideo/304
0 x
Ernie
Posts: 5446
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2016 2:48 pm
Location: Central PA
Affiliation: Anabaptist Umbrella
Contact:

Re: "One True Church and related topics."

Post by Ernie »

KenW wrote:Hello.

The discussion has moved on from references to the COC and ICOC, but I'll throw this in nonetheless. I'm a long time member of both the CoC and the ICOC, where I'm currently still a member. We are (in)famous for being one-true-churchers. Though that is changing, slowly. You can generalize but you can't really paint everyone in a given group with the same broad brush strokes, as everyone knows.

I'd say many (most?) members of the CoC and ICOC who know of the Anabaptists came to know them from following the ministry and writings of David Bercot.

It is true that the "connecting tissue" between "us" and Mr. Bercot was around the role of Baptism in the believer's conversion. Anyone who knows the CoC knows that we believe water baptism is the point where a believer (first having repented) receives forgiveness of sins and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

David Bercot acknowledged as part of his investigation in the early church writings that this was the original practice...with some important differences for the current era that I'll note shortly. I think Mr. Bercot's position on baptism is what allowed us to "hear" what else he had to say about other topics.

As an aside, I thought having read a number of discussions on this forum that this view of baptism was also commonly held among Anabaptists groups, and that Menno himself understood infant baptism to be corruption of the practice, thus having himself and those who followed his teachings (re)baptized as adults. And that many were persecuted (murdered) by both Protestants and Catholics of the era for doing so. Please correct me if I'm misunderstanding that narrative.

Anyway, in the last few years, a small group broke away from the ICOC in Boston led by a man named Chuck Pike. Chuck was particularly influenced by David's stance on non-violence, divorce/remarriage, head coverings, and perhaps a general lack of holiness in our fellowship regarding involvement in / consumption of modern media/professional sports activities. You would have to understand the history of the ICOC to understand why the things Anabaptist groups consider unholy are seen differently in the ICOC. But that is a discussion for another day, in the unlikely event anyone would care to discuss it.

I think what David Bercot forced CoC folks (who listen to his teaching) to consider - in regard to Christian Baptism - is that a believer doesn't have to understand all the theological implications of baptism for God to bestow its benefits. i.e. a person doesn't have to be baptized the "right way" - as the COC understands it - to be in fellowship. If the believer is surrendering his life to the lordship of Jesus then it doesn't matter whether he's been taught that he's already been saved by saying a prayer, or having a religious experience, or what-have-you as long as he's been baptized by somebody somewhere as part of the process, and that the person bears fruit in keeping with repentance. I *think* I'm stating this view fairly.

This is a very attractive perspective for those of us from a restoration background who yearn for unity and fellowship with all followers of Jesus outside our "one true church". And I believe there are many in the Restoration Movement who do in fact take this view.

Chuck has built relationships with some Anabaptist folks, including Followers of the Way and Finny Kuruvilla. Neither Chuck nor ex-ICOCers in his group would try to "re-baptize" any of these Christians he's building friendships with, though he has stated emphatically that he has not changed in his belief in the role of baptism one iota, other than the modified view stated above.

An important caveat: I do not personally know David, or Chuck or Finny or any of the folks in Boston. I simply listen to the messages that they post on their respective web sites where some of these issues are discussed. Its quite possible I misstated their positions or am missing some nuance.

For what its worth, I have thoroughly enjoyed the discussions I have read here and very much appreciate the insight shared by all of you. In the coming years I feel that all who seek to follow the Master will need each other more than ever.

Ken
I am friends with the three men you mention above, and I think you are stating things correctly in this post.
0 x
The old woodcutter spoke again. “It is impossible to talk with you. You always draw conclusions. Life is so vast, yet you judge all of life with one page or one word. You see only a fragment. Unless you know the whole story, how can you judge?"
MaxPC
Posts: 9044
Joined: Sat Oct 22, 2016 9:09 pm
Location: Former full time RVers
Affiliation: PlainRomanCatholic
Contact:

Re: "One True Church and related topics."

Post by MaxPC »

Should we view discipleship in the context of "one true church" or should it be viewed in the context of "one true faith"?
0 x
Max (Plain Catholic)
Mt 24:35
Proverbs 18:2 A fool does not delight in understanding but only in revealing his own mind.
1 Corinthians 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is folly with God
KingdomBuilder
Posts: 1482
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 9:00 pm
Affiliation: church of Christ

Re: "One True Church and related topics."

Post by KingdomBuilder »

MaxPC wrote:Should we view discipleship in the context of "one true church" or should it be viewed in the context of "one true faith"?
I'd argue for the latter.
0 x
Ponder anew what the Almighty can do
User avatar
Josh
Posts: 23823
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2016 6:23 pm
Location: 1000' ASL
Affiliation: The church of God

Re: "One True Church and related topics."

Post by Josh »

MaxPC wrote:Should we view discipleship in the context of "one true church" or should it be viewed in the context of "one true faith"?
Discipleship requires another believer, and 2 or more believers is the very definition of what church is.
0 x
Post Reply