"One True Church and related topics."

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
Heirbyadoption
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Re: Seekers Gathering 2018?

Post by Heirbyadoption »

I am only basing my knowledge of Holdeman theology upon what I read and those Holdemans I have grown up with or worked with. And yes, I do recognize that there is a growing diversity of ecclesial thought within the COGIC-M group in spite of any official statements or required baptismal vows, especially over the last few decades.

I apologize for any confusion stemming from my post - perhaps it would be simpler to just remove the denomination from the question. Do you, Josh Rodd, believe that the COGIC-M fellowship with whom you affiliate is the only sure / visible manifestation of the one true church, or at least that they are the only part of the one true church that you can be sure of? I'm not trying to back you in a corner, but it's kind of a simple yes or no, and I would think it would more or less end any perceived heresy trial regarding you attending SG18... ;)
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mike
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Re: Seekers Gathering 2018?

Post by mike »

Josh wrote:The position of everyone in the church I have met or talked to is that anyone who is expelled from the church is not right with God, and that we should not expel anyone who is right with God. The problem is not joining another church - the problem is leaving the church.
What about a person who voluntarily stops attending a Holdeman congregation and becomes a member of another conservative Anabaptist church? Would such a person be disciplined or expelled, or considered not right with God if there were no other issues except for that they left the Holdeman church?
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Soloist
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Re: Seekers Gathering 2018?

Post by Soloist »

being outside of the Holdeman church myself, I can't say that I speak with authority on this... But I did speak with a pastor who told me that although people are saved outside the church, they will eventually end up in the one true church.

Maybe this is wrong thinking, but I believe that people can be resistant and still be saved but I would believe a true seeker if given the time would come to a belief in non-resistance.

Now as for Josh, lay off him. He's not going to say exactly what you want. He personally might more flexibility than the publicly stated party line. This is where he has found fellowship and we can still fellowship with him while disapproving of a doctrine, whether or not we misunderstand it. I can say with surety that some Holdeman church members are part of the invisible true church, just like I can say some of the conservative Mennonites are... and other groups too. I don't agree with all of my church on their doctrines but I'm not going to go and publicly denounce it. There are also some Holdemans around here that seem pretty flexible on that particular doctrine. Maybe it's like how the official stance of most Mennonite churches is pouring, but a lot of Mennonites seem to think that immersion was probably the original form of baptism but choose not to make it an issue.
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Heirbyadoption
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Re: Seekers Gathering 2018?

Post by Heirbyadoption »

Soloist- Josh can answer however he feels to. But having some experience with the COGICM, the "One true church" defined as a denomination is more than a doctrine to disagree with; there are few higher idolatries or judgments against the larger body of Christ, and perhaps nothing more divisive. Maybe Ernie could clarify if this expresses his concern.

Personally, if a doctrine held by one's fellowship is truly unbiblical, it seems to me that if somebody recognizes this, it's more important to admit it than to pretend they are ok with it. But that's just me, who got expelled from my fellowship for refusing to submissively remain silent about false doctrine and remain in good standing (and yes, we were specifically given that option). So I might be a little prejudices here...
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Ernie
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Re: Seekers Gathering 2018?

Post by Ernie »

Heirbyadoption wrote: What I've picked up from Ernie/Mike in this discussion (if I may paraphrase) is that those who actually believe the "one true church doctrine", regardless whether they're Holdeman or anything else, are not really welcome at this meeting. There's no swearing required and no pushing anybody out of the kingdom, only a recognition that the "one true church" doctrine being held/practiced by a denomination is either Biblical or unBiblical. If you don't believe the "one true church" doctrine (which has been Holdeman 101 theology as long as I've known Holdemans, unless they've formally repudiated their position on that or clarified #5 of their baptismal vows), then all you have to do is say so publicly and it seems to me all is resolved.
Yes, this is correct.
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Ernie
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Re: Seekers Gathering 2018?

Post by Ernie »

Heirbyadoption wrote:Soloist- Josh can answer however he feels to. But having some experience with the COGICM, the "One true church" defined as a denomination is more than a doctrine to disagree with; there are few higher idolatries or judgments against the larger body of Christ, and perhaps nothing more divisive. Maybe Ernie could clarify if this expresses his concern.

Personally, if a doctrine held by one's fellowship is truly unbiblical, it seems to me that if somebody recognizes this, it's more important to admit it than to pretend they are ok with it.
Yes, I agree with both paragraphs.
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The old woodcutter spoke again. “It is impossible to talk with you. You always draw conclusions. Life is so vast, yet you judge all of life with one page or one word. You see only a fragment. Unless you know the whole story, how can you judge?"
Ernie
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Re: Seekers Gathering 2018?

Post by Ernie »

Josh wrote:
mike wrote:Now we are getting somewhere. I was not aware that COGICM believes people can be born again and saved apart from membership in their church.
Yes. At least, every congregation I have visited and the people I have spoken with feel this way.
I think this is very similar to the Roman Catholic position, correct?
They believe people can be saved outside their church, yet they believe that there is one-true-church and they believe that they are that church.

Many of my spiritual forefathers (as well as the ancestors of many COGICM) died for their faith. Included in that faith was the belief that the above doctrine is erroneous and that to believe this is treachery against Jesus who is the head of the church.

The least I can do (as I attempt to follow them as they follow Christ) is to also call this out like they did.

An acquaintance was just telling me Sunday evening that the Holdeman's are seeking to woo in one of his disciples. He told his disciple to ask them whether they believe that there is only one true communion and if there is only one true baptism and whether these can only be found in the COGICM.

This acquaintance is praying fervently that God will bring this whole COGICM structure down and that they with us can seek the Kingdom of God.

In 1988, a one-true-church called Worldwide Church of God founded by Herbert Armstrong began falling apart when his successor started calling out their false teachings including their belief that they were the one-true-church. They lost 80% of their members, yet the leaders believe that "it is spiritually the best thing that ever happened to them as a church."
You can read about it here. https://www.gci.org/aboutus/truth

So I pray that the leaders of COGICM will come to the same realization that the WCOG leaders did and be willing to make this known publicly. People like you Josh can perhaps help this happen if you don't feel a need to defend this belief. We would even help you walk through this. That is the kind of thing that I would hope a seekers gathering could accomplish.

And with that I will likely stop posting publicly about this topic.

Josh, I am glad to interact with you privately about this.
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The old woodcutter spoke again. “It is impossible to talk with you. You always draw conclusions. Life is so vast, yet you judge all of life with one page or one word. You see only a fragment. Unless you know the whole story, how can you judge?"
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Josh
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Re: Seekers Gathering 2018?

Post by Josh »

So I pray that the leaders of COGICM will come to the same realization that the WCOG leaders did and be willing to make this known publicly. People like you Josh can perhaps help this happen if you don't feel a need to defend this belief. We would even help you walk through this. That is the kind of thing that I would hope a seekers gathering could accomplish.
If you would like to see this happen, here is how not to do it:

Find the one person who attends (and isn't even a member) in a COGICM church and is also interested in your Seekers' Gathering and then ask him to publicly renounce what you think COGICM doctrines are.

If someone would like to dialogue with me privately, please send me a PM or an email. Ernie, I already sent you an email a few days ago and did not receive a response.
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Josh
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Re: Seekers Gathering 2018?

Post by Josh »

Ernie wrote:So I pray that the leaders of COGICM will come to the same realization that the WCOG leaders did and be willing to make this known publicly. People like you Josh can perhaps help this happen if you don't feel a need to defend this belief. We would even help you walk through this. That is the kind of thing that I would hope a seekers gathering could accomplish.
Do you really think I have that kind of power or influence over any kind of established Anabaptist church?

When I was in a Midwest church, I was completely unable to do anything about a member committing open adultery. I followed Matthew 18 and tried to do my best to deal with the situation properly. I spent a lot of time and energy convincing my friends who had started going there, not to give up on Anabaptism just because 1 member was living in adultery.

In the end, though, I was not able to do anything to make any change happen. I did not feel it right to fight my leaders, so withdrew my membership a few weeks before I would have been baptised and left and attended a CMC church instead. My reward for that was to eventually get rebuked for "not being under spiritual authority" and a lot of fractured relationships in my old church. My best friend is a member there as are a few of my other friends - people I brought to the church (not that they are "mine"), but they were my friends first, and I introduced them to that church.

When I was in a Beachy type of church, I noted some bad behaviour between someone under the age of 16 and someone well over the age of 20, the latter of whom I was fairly close friends with. I thought I addressed it the proper way, but did not. I did talk to 1 friend I trusted before I took further action. My reward for that was to be thoroughly rebuked for stirring up trouble / being a gossip.

Since then, I made a decision that whatever problems happen in a Mennonite church, I'm not going to be the person who fixes them or brings about change, and my efforts to notice open sin or situations that could turn very, very bad were not fruitful. I just need to trust that leaders will have vision and will see problems, and if things get really bad, my only option is to simply leave. It's not my job to fix things.

Perhaps this verse applies:
For what do I have to do with judging those outside? Are you not to judge those inside? But God will judge those outside. Remove the evil person from among you.
Perhaps it would be good for people who aren't Holdeman to worry a lot less about what Holdemans are doing and what their doctrines are, and instead focus on their own congregations. I personally feel exhausted and discouraged at being asked to represent an entire church of 25,000 people and to take responsibility for whether its doctrines are right or wrong.
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mike
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Re: Seekers Gathering 2018?

Post by mike »

Josh wrote:Perhaps it would be good for people who aren't Holdeman to worry a lot less about what Holdemans are doing and what their doctrines are, and instead focus on their own congregations. I personally feel exhausted and discouraged at being asked to represent an entire church of 25,000 people and to take responsibility for whether its doctrines are right or wrong.
I'll respond to this but also am communicating via PM and will probably discontinue this topic in this thread.

I can understand why that feels exhausting but that isn't what is being asked. It's about the attendee, not the attendee's church or denomination. If the attendee believes his church or denomination is the only true church, coming to a seeker's conference which is not intended to promote that idea would be counterproductive. If the attendee is open to the idea of introducing conservative Anabaptists to seekers without promoting one CA church or denomination as the only true iteration of Christ's church, he is welcome from what I understand. If that's you, I believe you are most welcome.
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Remember the prisoners, as though you were in prison with them, and the mistreated, as though you yourselves were suffering bodily. -Heb. 13:3
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